White Mary, Mother of Jesus

[_charity]

In fact, would someone of Israelite descent look THAT much lighter than someone of Mesoamerican descent?

I don't know. Why don't we go down to the Mittleman Jewish Center here in Portland grab a gorup of Jewish people and compare them to a bunch of native Guatemalans. What do you think we would see?

[_beastie]

I don't know. Why don't we go down to the Mittleman Jewish Center here in Portland grab a gorup of Jewish people and compare them to a bunch of native Guatemalans. What do you think we would see?

Are you actually suggesting that a group of Jewish people from Portland, in 2008, would fairly resemble a group of Jewish people from Jerusalem in 600 BC?

Of course, that has to do more with the "Nephites" labeling the "lamanites" dark, and that doesn't even work, either, because they both mixed with the native population, so this issue doesn't really address the White Mary question. Nephi and Mary were both from the same mid-east background with olive complexions. Why would Nephi label her "white"?

When I read that passage, I don't read about skin color.

There is a "natural" prejudice for light color. Blacks prefer lighter, as well.

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2 ... skin.shtml

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/student ... _colorism/

Is the "dumb blonde" thing us darker haired and complected ones trying to "even" things up?

You tell me you're not reading about skin color, but then talk about how it's "natural" to prefer light skin color. And then you link two studies that talk about how blacks in AMERICA still prefer lighter skin tones. Uh, gee, ya think it might have something to do with the history of this country? Maybe has something to do with the long term biased towards whites in this country, and being able to come closer to passing for white? And something to do with the fact that lighter colored blacks were treated differently by the larger culture? (which probably has roots in our history of slavery, in which lighter skinned blacks were often the result of a slave/master parentship - which also would create bias to the offspring)

Can you show me evidence that people from countries without a history of bias against darker skins also tend to prefer lighter skins????

[_Moniker]

When I read that passage, I don't read about skin color.

There is a "natural" prejudice for light color. Blacks prefer lighter, as well.

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2 ... skin.shtml

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/student ... _colorism/

Is the "dumb blonde" thing us darker haired and complected ones trying to "even" things up?

Blacks prefer lighter, as well? I think that "lighter prejudice" you speak of comes from trying to obtain a beauty that others define as "fair" or "white". Do you think anyone thinks that anyone with dark skin would naturally want to be lighter if not for the repeated emphasis of linking beauty with fair in our culture?

[_Moniker]

Beastie beat me to it! And replied so much better. Shoot! I should read the entire thread before replying.

:)

[_Jersey Girl]

I don't know. Why don't we go down to the Mittleman Jewish Center here in Portland grab a gorup of Jewish people and compare them to a bunch of native Guatemalans. What do you think we would see?

Are you actually suggesting that a group of Jewish people from Portland, in 2008, would fairly resemble a group of Jewish people from Jerusalem in 600 BC?

Of course, that has to do more with the "Nephites" labeling the "lamanites" dark, and that doesn't even work, either, because they both mixed with the native population, so this issue doesn't really address the White Mary question. Nephi and Mary were both from the same mid-east background with olive complexions. Why would Nephi label her "white"?

When I read that passage, I don't read about skin color.

There is a "natural" prejudice for light color. Blacks prefer lighter, as well.

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2 ... skin.shtml

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/student ... _colorism/

Is the "dumb blonde" thing us darker haired and complected ones trying to "even" things up?

You tell me you're not reading about skin color, but then talk about how it's "natural" to prefer light skin color. And then you link two studies that talk about how blacks in AMERICA still prefer lighter skin tones. Uh, gee, ya think it might have something to do with the history of this country? Maybe has something to do with the long term biased towards whites in this country, and being able to come closer to passing for white? And something to do with the fact that lighter colored blacks were treated differently by the larger culture? (which probably has roots in our history of slavery, in which lighter skinned blacks were often the result of a slave/master parentship - which also would create bias to the offspring)

Can you show me evidence that people from countries without a history of bias against darker skins also tend to prefer lighter skins????

beastie,

Colorism is found across the globe. I'd like someone to identify a culture that does not have a history of bias against darker skin.

[_beastie]

beastie,

Colorism is found across the globe. I'd like someone to identify a culture that does not have a history of bias against darker skin.

I'm sure to a certain extent it is, but separating out that bias from the overwhelming bias towards white skin by extremely powerful cultures would be extremely difficult to do. Nephi had not been exposed to a powerful white culture that would influence this bias, and, besides, he and Mary were from the same culture. Would an olive-skinned person from the mid-east in 600 BC describe another olive-skinned person from 400 years later as "white"?

[_Inconceivable]

When I read that passage, I don't read about skin color.

There is a "natural" prejudice for light color. Blacks prefer lighter, as well.

Is the "dumb blonde" thing us darker haired and complected ones trying to "even" things up?

How many dumb blondes and African Americans here prefer the black Michael Jackson over the new and improved White Michael Jackson?

I rest my case.


--------------

To Mormons, Mary is not only fair skinned but white skinned - most likely an albino.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Back to the original point. I always laugh when I read about Mary being white. It reminds me of Snow White, she was called that because her skin was as white as snow.

The first time I read the Book of Mormon cover to cover was when I was 20 years old. I was born in the church, but never read it all the way through. The racism jumped off the page. Of course, this was the early 90s, I was a college student and overly sensitive to racial stereotypes. I'm less judgmental about it now because I realize it was written in 1830, and like any book from that time period, it has racial stereotypes that were common in most literature at that time.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie,

Colorism is found across the globe. I'd like someone to identify a culture that does not have a history of bias against darker skin.

I'm sure to a certain extent it is, but separating out that bias from the overwhelming bias towards white skin by extremely powerful cultures would be extremely difficult to do. Nephi had not been exposed to a powerful white culture that would influence this bias, and, besides, he and Mary were from the same culture. Would an olive-skinned person from the mid-east in 600 BC describe another olive-skinned person from 400 years later as "white"?

Well....it's my understanding that colorism is present in the Middle East as it is throughout other cultures. India comes immediately to mind as well as South America. Colorism is a fact of human nature and the product of ethnocentrism and our evolution as human beings. Having said that...

The only context in which the physical description of Mary, that is not included in the Synoptic Gospels, is that in which the authors are displaying socio-cultural attitudes of the 19th century in which they wrote. Later, we see the Curse of Cain doctrine which also bears no resemblance to the Old Testament account and is twisted up and re-worked to introduce a doctrine that is not Biblical to a group of religionists who claim the Bible as scripture.

Go figure.

[_charity]

I don't know. Why don't we go down to the Mittleman Jewish Center here in Portland grab a gorup of Jewish people and compare them to a bunch of native Guatemalans. What do you think we would see?

Are you actually suggesting that a group of Jewish people from Portland, in 2008, would fairly resemble a group of Jewish people from Jerusalem in 600 BC?

I don't think you know what Jews in 600 B.C. looked like. I am sure you are aware of the Diaspora.

Of course, that has to do more with the "Nephites" labeling the "lamanites" dark, and that doesn't even work, either, because they both mixed with the native population, so this issue doesn't really address the White Mary question. Nephi and Mary were both from the same mid-east background with olive complexions. Why would Nephi label her "white"?

Because she was beautiful, pure, and white doesn't mean skin color.

[
You tell me you're not reading about skin color, but then talk about how it's "natural" to prefer light skin color.

\

I wasn't the one who brought it up and I don't see it as that. But obviously you do, so I was pointing out something that was relevant to YOUR question.

[
And then you link two studies that talk about how blacks in AMERICA still prefer lighter skin tones. Uh, gee, ya think it might have something to do with the history of this country? Maybe has something to do with the long term biased towards whites in this country, and being able to come closer to passing for white? And something to do with the fact that lighter colored blacks were treated differently by the larger culture? (which probably has roots in our history of slavery, in which lighter skinned blacks were often the result of a slave/master parentship - which also would create bias to the offspring)

Can you show me evidence that people from countries without a history of bias against darker skins also tend to prefer lighter skins????

Look at the numbers.

There's about 6.5 billion people in the world.
Asia (3,970,000,000)
Africa (925,000,000 )
Europe (730,000,000)
Latin/South America/Carribean (560,000,000
North America (330,000,000)
Oceania (35,000,000)

This is from www.anthro.palomar.edu/ethnicity

Non-whites outnumber whites about 4 to 1. Surely you wouldn't want to say that there is something so "superior" about whites that wherever we go all the non-whites automatically think we are better and they want to be like us even though they are much superior in numbers, have their own cultures, their own atittudes? That is down right racist!