Scott Gordon on Lying for the Church

[_charity]

Is there a reason why you truncated the article, Kevin? Something about context maybe?

[_JAK]

Be ye not ashamed. What are we... ashamed of our faith? Ashamed of our doctrine? Ashamed of our history?

Harmony,

An interesting question. Actually, the history of Christianity long before the further fragmentation which is the various spins of Mormonism, that history was a bloody, hateful time of a God who had entire populations destroyed and who took personal interest in the destruction of various individuals.

The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe against external and internal threats. Crusades were fought against Muslims, pagan Slavs, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, and political enemies of the popes. Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.

The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia. The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through to the 16th century in territories outside the Levant usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons. Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade.

The Crusades had far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts, some of which have lasted into contemporary times. Because of internal conflicts among Christian kingdoms and political powers, some of the crusade expeditions were diverted from their original aim, such as the Fourth Crusade, which resulted in the sack of Christian Constantinople and the partition of the Byzantine Empire between Venice and the Crusaders. The Sixth Crusade was the first crusade to set sail without the official blessing of the Pope, establishing the precedent that rulers other than the Pope could initiate a crusade. source

The Roman Catholic Church was virtually silent when Hitler was killing 6 million Jews. Hitler himself claimed that he was a Roman Catholic.

Pope Pius XII made no statements against Hitler and his genocide.

So Christians have a great deal of history for which they should be ashamed.

The Ku Klux Klan boasted that it was Christian as it engaged in
Christian terrorism

Christian Atrocities 1

Christian Atrocities 2

Christian Atrocities 3

Christian Atrocities 4

Not enough time to list more about which Christianity should be ashamed.

JAK

[_dartagnan]

Is there a reason why you truncated the article, Kevin? Something about context maybe?

It wasn't an article you idiot it was sent to my email, and yes, I left out the end tid-bit about Hinckley's death. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Nothing changes the fact that Scott Gordon creates one straw man after the other using so-called email comments he never shares. He uses no facts or sources to base his claims on except a meaningless percentage about Mormon classes in Evangelical churches. Yea, and how many Catholics are invited to share their side when the Gospel Doctrine teacher bashes the Catholic Church? This is a stupid derailment that tries to take focus off teh fact that Gordon has not addressed the question. Do Mormons lie or provide incorrect answers? Yes, we have demonstrated this all the time. When they're not doing this, they are playing rhetorical dodgeball, as you were doing on the other thread when I asked you point blank, "Did Joseph Smith lie about his polygamy?" You refused to answer yes, even though it is a universally accepted fact that he did lie. The entire apologetic system is dishonest, and Gordon isn't doing it any favors in trying to pull the wool over our eyes by trying to blame Mormon dishonesty on the anti-Mormons. You guys always have some kind of excuse conjured up.

Gordon generalizes as if every time someone questions the correctness or honesty in Mormon answers, that the real evil lies behind some anti-Mormon ministry. What a crock.

[_dartagnan]

JAK, don't hijack another thread. You tried spreading your ignorance on Christian history in a thread that you still haven't responded to. If you refuse to educate yourself beyond linking cheesy websites, at least be good enough to present your ignorance in an orderly fashion. Go start another thread. Nothing in this thread pertains to the Crusades or the KKK.

[_charity]

Is there a reason why you truncated the article, Kevin? Something about context maybe?

It wasn't an article you idiot it was sent to my email, and yes, I left out the end tid-bit about Hinckley's death. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

I wasn't referring to the end, but to the beginning. This is what you left out.

"The Mormon Problem with Honesty

In the various articles, blogs, and comments related to Mitt Romney's
Mormonism, the Mormon honesty problem has come up. "Why didn't Mitt
Romney talk about what Mormons really believe?" asked one writer.
"Mormons feel it is ok to lie about their beliefs," stated a radio
caller. "

See, you left out the part about the anti-Mormon statement which occasioned the e-mail piece. On purpose? Now, who looks like an idiot, Kevin.

[_dartagnan]

You always look like an idiot charity, and even moreso now because Gordon is doing precisely what I said he does. He creates straw men and claims to base them on mystery emails he never cites. He responds only to softball questions so he can knock them out of the ball park. I suspect he actually creates these questions himself. He loves to write in this sort of venue where there is no feedback allowed. He is the apologetic preacher with his own pulpit. Now, what about the hundreds of emails he probably receives, asking specifics, such as Joseph Smith's refusal to come clean when he was asked about polygamy?

He won't even admit he gets these kinds of emails. Instead he wants his audience to think the questions he mentions are about the toughest pieces of criticism the Church has to deal with.

[_charity]

You always look like an idiot charity, and even moreso now because Gordon is doing precisely what I said he does. He creates straw men and claims to base them on mystery emails he never cites. He responds only to softball questions so he can knock them out of the ball park. I suspect he actually creates these questions himself. He loves to write in this sort of venue where there is no feedback allowed. He is the apologetic preacher with his own pulpit. Now, what about the hundreds of emails he probably receives, asking specifics, such as Joseph Smith's refusal to come clean when he was asked about polygamy?

He won't even admit he gets these kinds of emails. Instead he wants his audience to think the questions he mentions are about the toughest pieces of criticism the Church has to deal with.

A very clumsy sidestep, there. Just why did you leave off the first part of the e-mail piece?

I know how many e-mails Allen gets, and what the subjects of them are. It has been weeks since there was a question about polygamy that I recall. I have actual facts, as opposed to your "hundreds of e-mails he PROBABLY receives." YOu really ought to stick to what you know, instead of what you imagine in your mind.

[_Pokatator]

I know how many e-mails Allen gets, and what the subjects of them are. It has been weeks since there was a question about polygamy that I recall. I have actual facts, as opposed to your "hundreds of e-mails he PROBABLY receives." YOu really ought to stick to what you know, instead of what you imagine in your mind.

How do you know are you his secretary monitoring his email?

Or is this more behind the scenes gossip?

Share the facts and how you came by them.

[_charity]

I know how many e-mails Allen gets, and what the subjects of them are. It has been weeks since there was a question about polygamy that I recall. I have actual facts, as opposed to your "hundreds of e-mails he PROBABLY receives." YOu really ought to stick to what you know, instead of what you imagine in your mind.

How do you know are you his secretary monitoring his email?

Or is this more behind the scenes gossip?

Share the facts and how you came by them.

I'm on the same list.

[_Pokatator]

I know how many e-mails Allen gets, and what the subjects of them are. It has been weeks since there was a question about polygamy that I recall. I have actual facts, as opposed to your "hundreds of e-mails he PROBABLY receives." YOu really ought to stick to what you know, instead of what you imagine in your mind.

How do you know are you his secretary monitoring his email?

Or is this more behind the scenes gossip?

Share the facts and how you came by them.

I'm on the same list.

Same list as who, Dart? What list? Who else?