Characters from the Gold Plates

[_truth dancer]

I'm interested in the apologetic response to this?

I do not recall hearing how believers make sense of this.

~dancer~

[_antishock8]

Posted by FARMS circa 1999:

Unknown to Jones at the time, other archaeological evidence had been uncovered in central Mexico for a system of writing that might be similar to that from Tlatilco and thus to the Anthon transcript. Physical specimens of this evidence are not available to us now. The reason deserves an explanation.

William Niven, a Scottish mineralogist, worked at a number of archaeological sites in the Valley of Mexico between 1921 and 1932... blah blah blah... Niven excavated some 2,600 inscribed slabs. He reburied these after making drawings of them. Family members still have some of the drawings. Blah blah blah...

Soooooooo.... Anyway. Yeah. It's all BS.

[_guy sajer]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Reformed Egyptian existed, we can probably safely assume that Lehi and his wandering band of large forarmed and big muscled troup and their descendents would not be the only ones using it. There should be, therefore, instances of Reformed Egyptian elsewhere, in fact, probably a number of them, that would have been left behind in the archeological record.

Yet, nothing. Vanished like the entire million person plus Lehite civilization.

[_truth dancer]

Here is the Maxwell Institute paper:

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=188

New Light: "Anthon Transcript" Writing Found?

A few paragraphs,

Jones went on to identify Anthon transcript characters on two Mexican seals made of baked clay. One of those objects was first reported in 1966 when Dr. David H. Kelley discussed it in print. This inscribed "cylinder seal" had been found accidentally by workmen excavating soil for use as fill dirt at the famed archaeological site of Tlatilco near the western edge of the Valley of Mexico. Kelley, a renowned linguist and archaeologist, considered that the characters represented a "hitherto unknown writing system."7 Archaeologist John A. Graham of the University of California later commented on this script: "The markings of this seal closely resemble various oriental scripts ranging from Burma and China to the rim of the Mediterranean. If the signs of this seal should be writing, and the seal should be accepted as authentic, we would almost surely be dealing with an instance of transpacific contact during the Preclassic" age (i.e., the period in Mesoamerica preceding AD 300).8 Based on the many artifacts excavated at Tlatilco, a probable date for this seal can be inferred of not later than 400 BC.

Jones also compared the Anthon transcript signs to some found on another clay seal excavated at the famous Olmec site of La Venta, Tabasco.9 The characters on the La Venta artifact are much simpler than those on the one from Tlatilco, hence the comparisons are less interesting. Nevertheless Jones determined that he could see parallels between all the La Venta signs and those on the Anthon transcript.

He concluded that most of the Anthon transcript marks can be seen on these two artifacts. Moreover some of the characters on the Tlatilco seal were grouped somewhat like those on the Anthon document. Jones felt that he had discovered through his comparisons support for the thesis that at least the Tlatilco seal offered a firm archaeological example of the type of script represented by the Anthon transcript.

Unknown to Jones at the time, other archaeological evidence had been uncovered in central Mexico for a system of writing that might be similar to that from Tlatilco and thus to the Anthon transcript. Physical specimens of this evidence are not available to us now. The reason deserves an explanation.

William Niven, a Scottish mineralogist, worked at a number of archaeological sites in the Valley of Mexico between 1921 and 1932. Aside from a scattering of second-hand references in popular media of the time, the rudiments of his story are only found in an article about the man by E. C. Baity and N. K. Owen in a Mexican conference volume in 1989.10 With assistance from Niven's descendants who were still living in Mexico a decade ago, the authors relate that in the course of his digging, Niven excavated some 2,600 inscribed slabs. He reburied these after making drawings of them. Family members still have some of the drawings. Among scholars who collaborated with Niven was the famous Maya archaeologist Sylvanus G. Morley, who said that the inscribed characters were totally unfamiliar to him. Some of the artifacts Niven dug up went to such prominent museums as the Peabody at Harvard, the American Museum of Natural History in New York, and the British Museum. Moreover, among the thousands of clay figurines he excavated were some he considered to show "strongly Phoenician" or "Semitic" features. It remains to be seen whether any of Niven's materials can now be retrieved for study. J. Walter Fewkes of the Smithsonian Institution was impressed enough to propose sending a staff of archaeologists to report on the inscribed slabs, but evidently nothing came of it.

Baity and Owen urged that responsible scholars try to examine those items of Niven's material that can still be located with the help of his family in order to subject them to modern analyses. Inasmuch as most of his excavation sites were only a few miles from Tlatilco, it could well be that Niven found further examples of the writing that Kelley reported some 40 years later.

The results of Jones’s investigation involving the Anthon transcript characters, plus the finds made by Niven in the field, are potentially important. Some enthusiasts who are interested in the subject of ancient writing and the Anthon transcript could now perform a valuable service by attempting to gather available information before the trail again grows cold. If larger samples of these characters could be obtained, cryptographic methods might make progress on the task that Jones began.

[_Canucklehead]

I see that on the fairwiki they're still referencing the article which claims that two cylinders with anthon-esque characters were found in mesoamerica.

Carl H. Jones, "The 'Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals," Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology 122 (September 1970): 1–8.

I've googled the "Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology" but it doesn't seem to exist. Perhaps I should send an email to someone at FAIR/FARMS to see if they can get me a copy of the article they refer to.

On another note, when I was growing up, I had a gold-covered Book of Mormon with black Anthon "caractors" all over it to make it look like gold plates. I wonder why they stopped producing those!!! :P

[_Canucklehead]

Good find, truthdancer!

So, seeing as footnote #1 in that article is a reference to the Carl H. Jones paper, it shouldn't be too much to ask for them to point us in the direction of that paper, right?

I'd like to do some source-checking!

[_Blixa]

I love that Book of Mormon, Canucklehead. Finally, good Mormon design! (The status of the 'caracters' themselves, aside.)

On the same style tip, I found some 1942 Improvement Era articles about translating the caracters. You can find scanned .pdf's of the articles here: http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptu ... rowley.htm

Make what you will of the arguments themselves, I'm taken by the lovely Gill Sans-ish sans serif fonts of the titles (and their cursive counterparts) as well as the pleasingly florid style of the author, Mr. Ariel L. Crowley:

Only a man of truth would dare to leave for future critical study the Book of Mormon, the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants, the revised version of the Bible, the Book of Abraham, and other similar works, with the claim that they were divinely revealed to him. Unafraid, Joseph Smith left for examination by posterity an unparalleled array of documents. In this he is distinguished and alone. History holds no precedent for his life.

[Anonymous]

I've googled the "Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology" but it doesn't seem to exist. Perhaps I should send an email to someone at FAIR/FARMS to see if they can get me a copy of the article they refer to.

Here you can find out why you can't locate anything for the Newsletter and Proceedings:

http://www.shields-research.org/General ... _Intro.htm

The Society for Early Historical Archaeology's Newletter stopped being published in 1988 and the Society itself disbanded shortly thereafter. FARMS should be able to provide you with any articles from that SEHA newsletter, though.

some highlights from the history of SEHA:

The University Archaeological Society (U.A.S.) was formed on April 18, 1949, as an official adjunct to the Brigham Young University (BYU) Department of Archaeology. In 1967 the society was renamed the Society for Early Historical Archaeology (S.E.H.A.). The mission of the society under both names was:

To help the Department of Archaeology [later the Department of Anthropology] by doing some things which a regular academic department might have difficulty dealing with directly: promoting research on scriptural archaeology and giving publicity on a non-technical level to discoveries in this field.

...

In 1979 a new department chair for the BYU Department of Archaeology was hired, the Department of Archaeology was renamed the Department of Anthropology and the archaeology of the scriptures was de-emphasized.

...

Unfortunately, several complicated circumstances combined to ensure the slow but steady decline of S.E.H.A. as a viable organization. Despite this decline, S.E.H.A. managed to continue for another 11 or so years, and produced an additional 20 newsletters (for a total of 164), with the last being dated June, 1988. The Annual Symposium was continued through at least the thirty-ninth (1990). While there was talk of merging the S.E.H.A with the Ancient America Foundation (AAF), and at least one AAF board meeting was held with some S.E.H.A. board members, the S.E.H.A. board never voted for the proposed merger.

Over its lifetime, the S.E.H.A. made available a great deal of information of interest to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, including evidence consistent with the Book of Mormon actually being historical and not merely a fable concocted by Joseph Smith. Much of this information has been greatly expanded on by research conducted and published by the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS). Indeed, some of those formerly associated with the S.E.H.A. have become associated with FARMS. For instance, John A. Tvedtnes, a former S.E.H.A. board member and contributor to the Newsletter, is now Senior Resident Scholar at FARMS.

[_Mercury]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Reformed Egyptian existed, we can probably safely assume that Lehi and his wandering band of large forarmed and big muscled troup and their descendents would not be the only ones using it. There should be, therefore, instances of Reformed Egyptian elsewhere, in fact, probably a number of them, that would have been left behind in the archeological record.

Yet, nothing. Vanished like the entire million person plus Lehite civilization.

And this is the thing that keeps being driven home, that linguistic remnants of "reformed egyptian" are not to be found anywhere. Languages just don't disappear, they morph. They carry over character sets, etc. To believe that RE ever existed is to believe that a language was created out of thin air, was used and then disapeared with no remnant or trace to be found.

[_Chap]

I see that on the fairwiki they're still referencing the article which claims that two cylinders with anthon-esque characters were found in mesoamerica.

Carl H. Jones, "The 'Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals," Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology 122 (September 1970): 1–8.

I've googled the "Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology" but it doesn't seem to exist. Perhaps I should send an email to someone at FAIR/FARMS to see if they can get me a copy of the article they refer to.

I have tried a few library catalogs on this one, including the Library of Congress. But that journal title (or reasonable variations thereof) does not seem to yield anything.

There is a Society for Historical Archaeology, with a long-lived journal called 'Historical Archaeology': see http://www.sha.org/publications/ha-sha/default.htm

But I can't find anything like the alleged Jones article in the volumes from 1967 to 1986. See the indices and contents lists at:
http://www.sha.org/publications/ha-sha/indices.htm

What did one expect? This is FARMS for goodness sake! The rules that the rest of us have to live by don't apply to them, as we have seen many times before. I doubt whether they have simply made up this paper altogether - but they probably don't consider it necessary to our salvation to make it possible for us to read it and come to an independent judgement of its value.