FARMS---a "secular" organization?

[_KimberlyAnn]

Merc and I have talked off board, and I hope he knows I like him a lot, but his post on this thread does bother me.

I don't think I've ever commented negatively on anything he's posted before, but this time, I wish he'd edit what he wrote.

Kimberly Ann

[_Canucklehead]

I admit that I don't know Mercury at all, but his post has no place in any kind of intelligent discussion.

Furthermore, it provides ammunition for people who wish to paint all exmos with the same brush. Do you suppose that any questioning Mormon will treat this board as a serious place where they can come for information when we have posters who do nothing but spread that kind of tripe?

[_Chap]

I do agree that Mercury's DCP piece should not be in this forum.

In this forum, so far as I understand the rules, one might reasonably say (in an imaginary address to DCP)

"When you look back on your life, I think you may regret having wasted your intellectual talents on something that is both false, and of interest to a tiny minority even of your fellow believers."

(Of course, saying that to DCP would be pretty much a waste of time in itself, since he is presumably convinced that all his apologetic labors will help him into the CK, adn hence ARE worthwhile. But that is not the point).

But the physical speculations about the possible means by which DCP may depart this life should surely mean that Mercury's post is moved to the Telestial Forum - which is there expressly to provide a zone in which such things can be said, by those who want to say them.

MODS???

[_Yoda]

I do agree that Mercury's DCP piece should not be in this forum.

In this forum, so far as I understand the rules, one might reasonably say (in an imaginary address to DCP)

"When you look back on your life, I think you may regret having wasted your intellectual talents on something that is both false, and of interest to a tiny minority even of your fellow believers."

(Of course, saying that to DCP would be pretty much a waste of time in itself, since he is presumably convinced that all his apologetic labors will help him into the CK, and hence ARE worthwhile. But that is not the point).

But the physical speculations about the possible means by which DCP may depart this life should surely mean that Mercury's post is moved to the Telestial Forum - which is there expressly to provide a zone in which such things can be said, by those who want to say them.

MODS???

(Moderator Note)

I have split Merc's comments off to a separate thread in the Telestial Forum. That particular post did cross the line of pure attack.

Liz

[_antishock8]

I admit that I don't know Mercury at all, but his post has no place in any kind of intelligent discussion.

Furthermore, it provides ammunition for people who wish to paint all exmos with the same brush. Do you suppose that any questioning Mormon will treat this board as a serious place where they can come for information when we have posters who do nothing but spread that kind of tripe?

"People" don't need any more ammunition to paint all exmos with the same brush other than an exmo being an exmo. How many times have you heard, "Someone must have offended him/her?"

Also, why would you assume that a questioning Mormon would need a serious place to discuss his or her doubts? It's impossible to know what any given Mormon would require to help him/her out of the cult; whether it's serious discussion or flippant off-the-cuff remarks we just don't know what particular combination of posts someone needs in order for the lightbulb to switch on.

I thought Mercury's post was excellent. It demonstrated the existential reality of Mr. Peterson's internal crisis. Why do you think Mr. Peterson does what he does, and says what he says? In one post Mercury brushed aside the illusion that Mr. Peterson attempts to create for himself, and presented him with the stark reality of life, Mr. Peterson's life, everyone's life in an attempt to provide a wake-up call. It was direct, simple, and effective. Your insecurities should not detract from the message that Mr. Peterson is mired in self-deceit, delusion, and surrounded by a small group of liars aiding him to live an ultimately meaningless life.

[_Canucklehead]

"People" don't need any more ammunition to paint all exmos with the same brush other than an exmo being an exmo. How many times have you heard, "Someone must have offended him/her?"

I've heard it lots of times. I also hear all kinds of claims about how once we "lose the spirit" we'll become hateful, angry minions of satan who will "kick against the pricks" etc. etc. So, if a believing Mormon wishes to discuss some of the questions they have about the church and the first thing they see here are posts like those of Mercury's, don't you suppose that they'll think that all those dire warnings may be true after all?

Also, why would you assume that a questioning Mormon would need a serious place to discuss his or her doubts? It's impossible to know what any given Mormon would require to help him/her out of the cult; whether it's serious discussion or flippant off-the-cuff remarks we just don't know what particular combination of posts someone needs in order for the lightbulb to switch on.

Why would you assume that they DON'T need a serious place? This board is a much better place for discussion than a place like RFM because it allows people from all sides of the debate to participate freely. However, if a Mormon apologist is attacked with disgusting and vile images of their own death, do you really think that they'll hang around and continue their participation? Of course they won't, and this board will become nothing but a more visually appealing version of RFM.

I thought Mercury's post was excellent. It demonstrated the existential reality of Mr. Peterson's internal crisis. Why do you think Mr. Peterson does what he does, and says what he says? In one post Mercury brushed aside the illusion that Mr. Peterson attempts to create for himself, and presented him with the stark reality of life, Mr. Peterson's life, everyone's life in an attempt to provide a wake-up call. It was direct, simple, and effective.

Oh yes, now I see that it was truly an intellectual masterpiece. Thanks for helping me see that.

Your insecurities should not detract from the message that Mr. Peterson is mired in self-deceit, delusion, and surrounded by a small group of liars aiding him to live an ultimately meaningless life.

My "insecurities" have nothing to do with wanting a place for intelligent and civilised discussion.

It is also my opinion that Daniel Peterson has been deceitful in his defence of Mormonism. Regardless, I still wish him to feel welcome on this board.

[_Mercury]

I thought Mercury's post was excellent. It demonstrated the existential reality of Mr. Peterson's internal crisis. Why do you think Mr. Peterson does what he does, and says what he says? In one post Mercury brushed aside the illusion that Mr. Peterson attempts to create for himself, and presented him with the stark reality of life, Mr. Peterson's life, everyone's life in an attempt to provide a wake-up call. It was direct, simple, and effective. Your insecurities should not detract from the message that Mr. Peterson is mired in self-deceit, delusion, and surrounded by a small group of liars aiding him to live an ultimately meaningless life.

Thank you. Although it was harsh this is exactly the point I was making. Peterson is a nothing, he will die a nothing and his life is nothing more than an academic form of a Fuller Brush Man.

[_Mister Scratch]

Time for an update. Now we've got DCP on record (yet again) admitting to the peril which is Admitting You Think the Book of Mormon is 'Real' History in an Academic Setting:

Funny. Wasn't it you who said a couple of years ago, on the ol FAIR board, something to the effect that: "Prof Clark had really put his reputation on the line [via his speech at BYU declaring that archaeology was the only way to prove the Book of Mormon] and that it could really cost him with his professional peers"?

Yes. I said that he ran a risk. Fortunately, his professional standing wasn't harmed.

I was not incorrect in what I said. That his speech "could really cost him with his professional peers" was true. That it didn't is fortunate. That he ran a risk was true. That he ended up paying no particular price is good.

(emphasis added)

So, perhaps this is the real "raison d'etre" of FARMS? To provide "safe cover" for theories which would "otherwise" lead to career suicide for LDS scholars?

*That*, to my mind, is the telling thing about this particular aspect of Mopologetics. It's this sense of theories and postulations needing to have this "safe harbor". This sense of LDS scholars being afraid / unwilling to subject their Book of Mormon theories to the light of day. in my opinion, this is indicative of some real cowardice.

by the way: there's a good deal of irony in the counter-analogy that The Good Professor keeps using in that thread:

The quality of a scholarly article consists in the adequacy of its evidence, the soundness of its analysis, and the importance of its argument, whether or not anybody ever reads it. Mendel's work on genetics wasn't poorly done because nobody paid any attention to it for decades. It was epochal and deeply significant, even before its importance was recognized by other scientists.

Yes. Um hmm. I'm sure one day that LDS scientists and scholars will recognize the "epochal and deeply significant" point of treating DNA evidence as legitimate science! Heck, the Correlation Department seems to have recognized this, or else the folks at Doubleday!

[_EAllusion]

FARMS is an organization dedicated to defending certain religious truths with secular methods. In that respect, they aren't different that "flood geologists" who attempt to make a scientific case for a literal Noah's flood.

[_Mercury]

FARMS is an organization dedicated to defending certain religious truths with secular methods. In that respect, they aren't different that "flood geologists" who attempt to make a scientific case for a literal Noah's flood.

I guess they are similar in that they are both deluded.