The Real Hell of Mormonism

[_harmony]

See, that's what bothers me about the Mormon concept of heaven and hell. They are both the same place.

I've never felt guilty that I wasn't good enough to be in the CK. I figured no one was, and that includes the rest of my family. We've all done things that will keep us out of the CK, so it's not like I'm going to be in the Terrestial by myself (if I make it that far). I've done some pretty stupid things, been totally clueless about stuff I probably should have been aware of, and one time stepped about as far over the line in the sand as can be, but I still have the same harmonious relationship with God I've ever had. Even while I was in my rebellious stage, I felt his presence, leading me to the answers to my questions, even if those answers weren't conventional.

So, like TD, the only hell I can imagine is what other people say is the CK. I don't want to go there. My family won't be there. My friends won't be there. The party's gonna be in Terrestial!

[_Sethbag]

remember being told that those in the middle kingdom would be in HF's presence, but unable to see him or communicate with him. I was also told that Jesus would visit those in the middle kingdom, but not those in the lower kingdom.

I haven't thought about this again probably until just now, so I'm not to sure how official-doctrine-based the above is, but I remember very clearly being taught that growing up.

Yes. I was taught that God the Father and Jesus dwelled in the Celestial--that Jesus was the steward over the Terrestrial, and would serve as a go-between between the inhabitants there and God the Father--and that the Holy Ghost would be the steward over the Telestial. And yes, Christ would administer to those in the Telestial as well.

I was also taught that those who lived in the Celestial Kingdom could visit others in the lower kingdoms, but not the other way around.

I remember being taught this as well, but it doesn't actually make any sense. The end goal of LDSism is exaltation. Elohim is exalted, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost will both be exalted, and be Gods in their own right (as well any other men that make it to the CKHL). In that context, it makes no sense that a person in the "middle kingdom" will be ministered to personally by the exalted Jesus Christ, who in his own right will be a God over his own universe, but not Elohim, an exalted God who is over this universe here. Other than ruling over their own universes, their station will still be equivelent as exalted gods. So why again would God be unable to minister in person to those in the Terrestrial Kingdom but Jesus would? And the argument is exactly the same for the Holy Ghost, who would at some point be exalted as a God in the exact same way. So why again would Elohim and Jesus, as exalted Gods, not minister to those in the Telestial Kingdom, but the Holy Ghost, also as an exalted God, would?

The whole teaching (for which I know of no scriptural basis, so it's probably just a Mormon hand-me-down tradition like the "suicide to get into the telestial kingdom" one) seems to be based on a worldview which completely forgets that the end state of Jesus and the Holy Ghost isn't what they are understood to be now, but in fact it is for them to be exalted Gods in their own right.

Also, I never understood the way you did that most Mormons would end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom and that it was easier to get into the CK as a convert during the afterlife. I never got that understanding from it at all. On the contrary, my understanding was that all Mormons who received the proper ordinances, and were genuinely concerned with obeying their covenants to the best of their abilities, were on the path that lead surely to exaltation. It was understood that this path continued after death, and that very few were expected to actually reach a suitable level of perfection during this life. But if you got the ordinances, and your heart was in the right place, you were in like Flynn.

And one more thing. The whole bit about if you're a murderer or a rapist or whatever you gotta spend the whole time in the spirit prison until the very end and then are granted the Telestial Kingdom's glory because Jesus is just such a merciful dude. I didn't understand that to be the true doctrine at all. My understanding was that any who received any kingdom of glory at all would do so only after having bowed their knee to Jesus and asked him for his forgiveness.

This means that a murderer, rapist, whatever, will eventually bow their knee to Jesus and beg his forgiveness, and this forgiveness will be granted. Thus they earn a kingdom of glory through repentance and forgiveness, but in the end the Telestial glory was the highest glory they were prepared, as people, to live, and so that's where they end up. I don't know that there is any specific time frame for when this forgiveness would occur, and always assumed it would be different for each person, ie: each person would reach the point where they made the decision, for themselves, to ask Jesus for his forgiveness, and that it would be then given. If the person had already had their temple work done for them, my assumption was that at that time they would accept it on their own behalf and move up to paradise.

Of course, I don't believe any of this reflects reality. It's just a fictional setting and a fictional concept. But that's my understanding of this particular Mormon fictional concept. And it's a little different from what you originally stated.

[_Jason Bourne]

remember being told that those in the middle kingdom would be in HF's presence, but unable to see him or communicate with him. I was also told that Jesus would visit those in the middle kingdom, but not those in the lower kingdom.

I haven't thought about this again probably until just now, so I'm not to sure how official-doctrine-based the above is, but I remember very clearly being taught that growing up.

Yes. I was taught that God the Father and Jesus dwelled in the Celestial--that Jesus was the steward over the Terrestrial, and would serve as a go-between between the inhabitants there and God the Father--and that the Holy Ghost would be the steward over the Telestial. And yes, Christ would administer to those in the Telestial as well.

I was also taught that those who lived in the Celestial Kingdom could visit others in the lower kingdoms, but not the other way around.

Based on D&C 76 the Father, Son and HG minister to those in the Celestial, the Son to those in the terrestrial and the HG to the Telestial. I was never taught there were goings between kingdoms in any way.


Now to your question

yes many members feel undue stress over whether they will inherit a celestial glory. The frequent emphasis on obedience and enduring to the end as well as a culture that expects certain behaviors-women should not work, large families, don't delay having children, the activity rate of your children will impact your happiness, never turn down a calling, men told mot to aspire to high calling yet those who get high callings are placed on a pedestal and given at times undue admiration... and so on can create a real pressure cooker.

I know some you post here think this is all bunk and that no such cultural idiosyncrasies exist nor that top leadership promotes this. But one only need read Pres Beck's last conference talk or review her comments and others in the recent WW leadership conference.

There is a huge burden and even fear that if one does not do ABC and XYZ they will not be in the celestial glory.

From 23-38 I felt this burden immensely. I think this as well as my inclination to over achieve, some natural or genetic tendencies that I have in the area of depression all fueled to create a pretty unhappy attitude for me for many years. But I discovered that the gospel really does not teach that is is so tough to receive the top glory. Through my own searching of the scriptures and then discovering some wonderful books I learned about grace and understood the difference between justification and sanctification.

We think justification means sanctification and that we have been confused about that. Justification is quite easy and comes when one enters the saving covenant with Christ. Sanctification or becoming perfect takes a life time and beyond. Once I understood this I found great joy.

But the pressure to be a certain way and to think one must check off a long list of to do's and if a few are missed before death one it out of luck is certainly there . I think we are moving away from it some though.

[_moksha]

I think one can be a Mormon and still worship a loving God who is infinitely merciful. Ignore it if anyone behind the curtain preaches elsewise.
That portrayal of God as petulant and jealous was just a reflection of barbaric times. A Supreme Being would hold forth with the most admirable
qualities.

[_Some Schmo]

This whole idea of three kingdoms was always sort of academic to me. It never felt real, just theoretical. The afterlife was just a big black box, as far as I was concerned, and I had no idea about its inner workings.

I was always concerned with more pressing matters, like whether Joseph Smith told the truth about the angels, seeing god and such that some of the "finer" points of Mormonism didn't matter to me. I could barely tell you anything about my nearly four years of seminary, only because it was all just bogus rubbish in my view (well... and it has been over 2 decades), and I had better things to think about.

[_neworder]

... my assumption was that at that time they would accept it on their own behalf and move up to paradise.

[_bcspace]

The Terrestrial Kingdom, or "middle kingdom", is where most people will end up. This is the kingdom where people will dwell who have committed minor sins, etc. I was always taught that there would be more Mormons in this kingdom than any other. We as members have more responsibility because we were taught the gospel here. We are held accountable at a greater level than non-members. Non Church members will be taught the gospel in the next life, and if they accept it, will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I never really thought this was fair. I thought, "Gee, why couldn't I just be a non-member? Then I could be given a little more slack, and still accept the gospel in the next life. Doesn't seem fair!"

I would like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction than Scratch's thread, and focus on this middle kingdom aspect of hell.

Did anyone else who grew up in the Church fear this middle kingdom as much as I did? There were many times when I just felt like "why bother?" I felt like I was going through the motions for nothing. I was always going to screw up, so more than likely, I wasn't going to be with my family, anyway, and would end up in that dreaded "middle ground".

Is this just the weird perfectionist in me coming out from being a musician and feeling like everything has to be perfect, or did others feel this way, too?

The Terrestial is not hell in LDS theology. Nor is it a place for people who committed 'minor sins' (those in the Celestial could have also been guilty of such). The Terrestial is for those not valiant in the testimony of Jesus and/or who would not accept the gospel in mortality but did in the afterlife.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

The Terrestrial Kingdom, or "middle kingdom", is where most people will end up. This is the kingdom where people will dwell who have committed minor sins, etc. I was always taught that there would be more Mormons in this kingdom than any other. We as members have more responsibility because we were taught the gospel here. We are held accountable at a greater level than non-members. Non Church members will be taught the gospel in the next life, and if they accept it, will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I never really thought this was fair. I thought, "Gee, why couldn't I just be a non-member? Then I could be given a little more slack, and still accept the gospel in the next life. Doesn't seem fair!"

I would like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction than Scratch's thread, and focus on this middle kingdom aspect of hell.

Did anyone else who grew up in the Church fear this middle kingdom as much as I did? There were many times when I just felt like "why bother?" I felt like I was going through the motions for nothing. I was always going to screw up, so more than likely, I wasn't going to be with my family, anyway, and would end up in that dreaded "middle ground".

Is this just the weird perfectionist in me coming out from being a musician and feeling like everything has to be perfect, or did others feel this way, too?

The Terrestial is not hell in LDS theology. Nor is it a place for people who committed 'minor sins' (those in the Celestial could have also been guilty of such). The Terrestial is for those not valiant in the testimony of Jesus and/or who would not accept the gospel in mortality but did in the afterlife.

Request for official doctrine to back that up please.

Can you imagine how such a doctrine would received by non Mormons?

Why even do baptism/temple works for the dead if they are screwed already and will not make it to the CK??? DUH?

[_The Nehor]

Read D&C 76, the only scripture we have on it.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Whoa! Back this bus up! OH MY GOD! I cannot believe I missed that as member!

So then, according to D&C 76, if you die a non Mormon, you will never make it to the CK, EVER, PERIOD.

Even if you accept the supposed "vicarious" baptismal/temple proxy work done on earth by guilted Mormons.

So WHY even do the sealings? The husband and wife who died as non Mormons will NEVER make it to the CK right?

So they will NOT be together for supposedly ever, so why even do the sealing proxy work??? HMMMM????