Ack! I would probably abuse drugs and be promiscuous.

Post by **_truth dancer** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:09 pm

I have wondered if relying on external demands/commands limits one's ability to listen to one's internal sense of "right and wrong", maybe even thwarting the knowledge that such an ability exists?

In other words, the idea that one requires the external rules/commandments in order to be a decent person may in fact limit one's ability to discover what one actually senses is good or not.

I think there is much value in learning from those who have gone before us, and who may share their wisdom regarding healthy or appropriate ways to live in the world. Looking to examples of those who have successfully managed life is a good thing, in my opinion. But I wonder if following, obeying, relying on others for a sense of "right and wrong" may not, in some ways thwart the discovery of one's inner conscience?

I don't know.

I do hear of many who release belief and struggle for a time as they try to figure out what really is healthy, beneficial, meaningful, appropriate, decent, etc. etc. It is as if they have to once again discover their own internal ability to discern goodness, or to awaken their personal conscience.

But I'm with others... if religion is the only thing that keep someone from breaking the law, harming others, living a horrible life, by all means stay believing! :-)

~dancer~

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:15 pm

truth dancer wrote:I have wondered if relying on external demands/commands limits one's ability to listen to one's internal sense of "right and wrong", maybe even thwarting the knowledge that such an ability exists?

I wonder this same thing... and sort of conclude it DOES! :)

In other words, the idea that one requires the external rules/commandments in order to be a decent person may in fact limit one's ability to discover what one actually senses is good or not.

I think there is much value in learning from those who have gone before us, and who may share their wisdom regarding healthy or appropriate ways to live in the world. Looking to examples of those who have successfully managed life is a good thing, in my opinion. But I wonder if following, obeying, relying on others for a sense of "right and wrong" may not, in some ways thwart the discovery of one's inner conscience?

You know, one of the reasons I believe I am REALLY drawn to ex-Mos is because I was raised in a VERY controlling home. My parents were much older than my peers parents (I was adopted), my father was military mentality, I was their baby girl and there were ridiculous expectations put upon me. I did go absolutely bonkers for a few years when I left home. It took experiences and figuring out that YES this is INDEED harmful to snap into the thought pattern that there were things I should avoid. :)

I do hear of many who release belief and struggle for a time as they try to figure out what really is healthy, beneficial, meaningful, appropriate, decent, etc. etc. It is as if they have to once again discover their own internal ability to discern goodness, or to awaken their personal conscience.

I see this! I see them on the board, or relating aspects of what they've gone through -- and I'm sooo touched by it. Yet, the idea that we can't perhaps do some things that others may not choose and then STILL be a "good" person frustrates me. People change! Those that wish to are the most successful -- imho. There is NO one more successful (that I can think of) then someone that lived their life where rules, expectations, etc... were placed upon them and they walk away from it. They MUST forge a new path and figure it out along the way. It takes guts.

Sometimes I just love this board! :)

But I'm with others... if religion is the only thing that keep someone from breaking the law, harming others, living a horrible life, by all means stay believing! :-)
~dancer~

Yep!

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:18 pm

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:*sigh*

All those temptations the devil promised to send my way if I just denied God.
...he really is a big stinkin' liar.

Haha!

by the way - is the picture in the OP showing some cheap, 'DIY' cosmetic surgery in action? ;)

That's Ms. Lindsey Lohan.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:19 pm

Sam Harris wrote:I have an LDS friend who swears up and down that she would be in a hole somwhere if not for the church. Because of this belief she has endured years of all sorts of racist BS, she's a single mom (adopted her adorable son), and there are times that she's really unhappy. But she hangs in there.

I agree (for once) with B&L's analysis of the situation. My life didn't change much when I joined the church, I stopped drinking what little coffee I did drink, I sure wasn't getting much nookie, and what, the one glass of wine ever six weeks I had came to a stop? Wow...

What do I do now? Well, I'm sure the church would probably see me as the whore of babylon now, I do enjoy my coffee, but I can't drink because the pill cocktail I'm on is too strong (why have booze when you can have percocet? better hallucinations...). Where are the laws I'm supposed to be breaking?

It's damn sad, and arrogant, the mentality that only those who are LDS know what it's like to have "good" lives. I've talked this over with folks in the MADhouse before, and on other forums. Some just can't believe that there are churches out there who teach people to, and even people who don't adhere to a specific faith to live similar lifestyles. It's both sick and funny.

Yes! That is frustrating to see them truly believe that all "goodness" is wrapped in the Church. Not ALL of them do that, but the ones that do really stand out to me.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:30 pm

*sigh*

Why do folks need God to scare them into behaving?

Mon, I do appreciate your comments on various threads about not being ashamed of sex. I think that people still make such a beautiful act far too taboo. Seriously, were there marriage contracts during the figurative time of Adam and Eve? Seriously...

People pervert the sanctity of sex when they abuse others or themselves (I'm not talking about masturbation). Being with someone you love is not a sin. Knowing you have AIDS and sleeping with as many people as you can for vengeance is...and it's a crime. Underwire bras suck (derail!!!).

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:38 pm

Sam Harris wrote:*sigh*

Why do folks need God to scare them into behaving?

Mon, I do appreciate your comments on various threads about not being ashamed of sex. I think that people still make such a beautiful act far too taboo. Seriously, were there marriage contracts during the figurative time of Adam and Eve? Seriously...

People pervert the sanctity of sex when they abuse others or themselves (I'm not talking about masturbation). Being with someone you love is not a sin. Knowing you have AIDS and sleeping with as many people as you can for vengeance is...and it's a crime. Underwire bras suck (derail!!!).

I didn't even know fornication WAS a sin until about 4-5 months ago!!! Oh! My! How can being intimate with someone you feel passionate about be something horrid? It's marvelous! It's euphoria! It's bliss! It's intoxicating!

Anyway... sure there are some sexual behaviors that can be harmful to us and others. No denying that, at all. Yet, the idea that adults must not experience this intimacy with another adult seems so odd to me. What is odd when current LDS tell ex-LDS that they're all "sexual puritans" (interesting to note though that the Puritans were actually more sexual than their counterparts at the time -- they just get a bum wrap) 'cause they question Joseph Smith. I do not get that! If ex-LDS are "sexual puritans" it's 'cause they were raised in the Church to be so!

Post by **_John Larsen** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:48 pm

One of the Church's strongest tools is to keep its members emotionally crippled and this is evidence of that. If you really believe you are nothing without the Church, you will not be real anxious to leave.

Post by **_Scottie** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:51 pm

Mon...are you saying you DON'T???

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:39 pm

Scottie wrote:Mon...are you saying you DON'T???

I don't what? Have sex? I had sex with my ex-husband since I was 23 years old and after we separated I haven't had sex. No drugs either. No alcohol since I was in my early 20's. Stopped smoking in my early 20's -- picked it up again for a wee bit then quit again.

What precisely was the question?

Oh! I pay my taxes too! :)

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:48 pm

John Larsen wrote:One of the Church's strongest tools is to keep its members emotionally crippled and this is evidence of that. If you really believe you are nothing without the Church, you will not be real anxious to leave.

I agree completely with this! So many people think the Church is them. Not just where they go to congregate -- it shapes who they are and their very life.