What is the source of conservativism in Christianity?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: What is the source of conservativism in Christianity?

Post by _asbestosman »

Mister Scratch wrote:If you can just obtain that "something" without any effort on your part---I.e., if all you had to do was read the sacred texts and believe in them, then that would make the existence of the church a moot point

I wonder how that fits with the Calvinistic doctrine of irrestable grace. If I understand them properly, nothing we can do will help save us or damn us--God has already made the choice. Yet Calvinists seem to feel that the church plays an important role. I don't wish to speak for them. Perhaps CKSalmon can shed some light on this.

Furthermore I think the LDS church doesn't need to worry about staying relevant by focusing on masturbation or the like. The LDS church requires plenty of other commitment for salvation including temple attendance, tithing, home / visiting teaching, and hours worth of weekly meetings. Let us also not forget about how many of us are continually prodded to be member-missionaries and share the message with non-member friends, family, and neighbors.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Post by _asbestosman »

Tarski wrote:
beastie wrote:Could it be that once the Christian religion became a seat of social and political power, it naturally became more conservative in order to conserve the system that endowed it with power?


Exactly. It's an inevitable process and ironic too.


So then attitudes about sex and similar issues are largely a reflection about the time when they obtained power? How then does one explain attitudes to new issues such as stem-cell research? Is it mostly an opposition to that which is new? What about new things that are accepted such as new telecommunication technology or other medical advances which are accepted by most (vaccines, etc.)?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Re: What is the source of conservativism in Christianity?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

asbestosman wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:If you can just obtain that "something" without any effort on your part---I.e., if all you had to do was read the sacred texts and believe in them, then that would make the existence of the church a moot point

I wonder how that fits with the Calvinistic doctrine of irrestable grace. If I understand them properly, nothing we can do will help save us or damn us--God has already made the choice. Yet Calvinists seem to feel that the church plays an important role. I don't wish to speak for them. Perhaps CKSalmon can shed some light on this.

Furthermore I think the LDS church doesn't need to worry about staying relevant by focusing on masturbation or the like. The LDS church requires plenty of other commitment for salvation including temple attendance, tithing, home / visiting teaching, and hours worth of weekly meetings. Let us also not forget about how many of us are continually prodded to be member-missionaries and share the message with non-member friends, family, and neighbors.


I would agree with all of this, however, I fail to see how being "member-missionaries," good neighbors, and generally good people fits into the colloquial definition of social conservatism.... You know what I mean? I don't really see most of the other LDS requirements as having much to do w/ this social conservatism, which, at heart, tends to focus on sex-related things (gay marriage & homosexuality, abortion, "family values," etc.)
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: What is the source of conservativism in Christianity?

Post by _asbestosman »

Mister Scratch wrote:I would agree with all of this, however, I fail to see how being "member-missionaries," good neighbors, and generally good people fits into the colloquial definition of social conservatism.... You know what I mean? I don't really see most of the other LDS requirements as having much to do w/ this social conservatism, which, at heart, tends to focus on sex-related things (gay marriage & homosexuality, abortion, "family values," etc.)

That's my point--with all these other non-socially conservative things requiring LDS time and commitment, why do they also tend towards social conservativism? Is it because the LDS church wants to be more like other churches?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

I just read this line from Robert McElvaine's book, Grand Theft Jesus.

Quote:
The real spirit of Jesus is reflected in the motto of Father Flanagan’s Boys Town, “He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.” But the Jesusless Lite Christians prefer such aphorisms as “pull your own weight” and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” (Try the latter sometime. You’ll find that it’s a physical impossibility.) When it comes to helping others, their likely response is, “He’s heavy, and he ain’t my brother!”


This would seem the flash point where conservatism dilutes and perverts Christianity. Additionally, greed is antithetical to Christianity, which necessitates subverting Christian love and charity for economic conservatives.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

beastie wrote:Could it be that once the Christian religion became a seat of social and political power, it naturally became more conservative in order to conserve the system that endowed it with power?


Are you talking about conservatism as in attempting to resist change?

There are Christian movements that sought to unsettle the status quo. That there were splits even in early American history (slavery in the UK too -- Quakers) shows how when we talk about the Christian religion it just appears that those that have certain political ideologies seem to grasp to whatever they want to from the Bible to fortify their position. There are Christians that support stem cell research -- their reasoning is that it would save lives and that many embryos would be discarded anyway. I'm almost 100% positive the Episcopal and Methodist Churches both support stem cell research -- from those embryos that would be discarded. There are Churches that are pro-choice, as well.

Wow -- this is sort of interesting, for me - TIME magazine, 1998: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html

If you continue reading the article you will see the Baptist Church changed it's position to reflect the congregates views who were conservatives!
Liberal Protestants have long been among the most ardent supporters of a woman's right to abortion. Consider the Rev. Howard Moody of Manhattan's Judson Memorial Church. In 1967, more than five years before the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state laws that prohibited abortions, the Baptist pastor organized a referral and counseling service for women seeking the then illegal procedure. Moody was a minister in the American Baptist Convention, a confederation of congregations that was adopting its own high-profile prochoice position. In 1968 the denomination officially sanctioned abortions during the first three months of pregnancy "at the request of the individual" and during the last six months under special circumstances. Five years later, the A.B.C. became a charter member of the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, a strongly prochoice lobbying network of religious agencies.


Here's from beliefnet in regards to abortion: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/120/story_12021_1.html
Who is pro-choice and religious? Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law. They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Its like that part in the Declaration of Independence ....

"We hold these truths to be self evident......"

Some things are just that way, self evident.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Gazelam wrote:Its like that part in the Declaration of Independence ....

"We hold these truths to be self evident......"

Some things are just that way, self evident.


... that all men are created equal?

That was self evident to the slave holder that penned those words and to the slave holders that signed the document?

Really??
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

... that all men are created equal?

That was self evident to the slave holder that penned those words and to the slave holders that signed the document?

Really??


Has Harmony been tutoring you on posting style?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Post by _Moniker »

Gazelam wrote:
... that all men are created equal?

That was self evident to the slave holder that penned those words and to the slave holders that signed the document?

Really??


Has Harmony been tutoring you on posting style?


Uh, no. Was it the content or the style?
Post Reply