True Believers and the Brain

[_The Nehor]

Oh no! You have walked into a paradox. If The Nehor becomes exalted, he will create the Easter Bunny which will have always existed. But it doesn't exist. Therefore, we know that the The Nehor will never reach the CK.

As an alternative, may I recommend Scotch?

Ahhh....but how do you prove it does no exist. I could have placed on a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse.

[_wenglund]

I don't know if the mind is "hard-wired" to believe in God, or whether it is the heart that is "hard-wired", or neither or even both (figuritively speaking), or some other explanation to account for the data. Nor, do I think science is adequately equiped to ever find a definitive answer to the question at hand.

However, while answers to such questions may allude us, I believe it is within our grasp to adequately answer the question whether a belief in God, or certain religious beliefs, are in one's interest to both hold and act thereon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Sorry to be a "stick in the mud" as my father would say, but could I ask that this thread stay on topic? :-)

I don't know if the mind is "hard-wired" to believe in God, or whether it is the heart that is "hard-wired", or neither or even both (figuritively speaking), or some other explanation to account for the data. Nor, do I think science is adequately equiped to ever find a definitive answer to the question at hand.

However, while answers to such questions may allude us, I believe it is within our grasp to adequately answer the question whether a belief in God, or certain religious beliefs, are in one's interest to both hold and act thereon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hey Wade... nice to see you! :-)

How do you think we can determine which beliefs are in one's best interest?

While I agree is some respects, it seems clear that there are beliefs that do NOT seem to be in the best interest of someone yet one may hold onto them as true and beneficial.

Take for example the eleven year old girl who recently died because her parents were religious and believed their faith would save her. Most of us would suggest their beliefs were NOT in the best interest of the girl yet, perhaps they believe that she is saved and all is well? I don't know but certainly they believed in God and faith enough to allow her to die.

Similarly, we see suicide bombers who believe their actions are in the best interest of themselves and their families, but others would certainly disagree.

I don't know the answer just pondering and wondering... :-)

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Sorry to be a "stick in the mud" as my father would say, but could I ask that this thread stay on topic? :-)

Sorry, I derail everything I touch.....whether that is my intention or not.

[_wenglund]

Sorry to be a "stick in the mud" as my father would say, but could I ask that this thread stay on topic? :-)

I don't know if the mind is "hard-wired" to believe in God, or whether it is the heart that is "hard-wired", or neither or even both (figuritively speaking), or some other explanation to account for the data. Nor, do I think science is adequately equiped to ever find a definitive answer to the question at hand.

However, while answers to such questions may allude us, I believe it is within our grasp to adequately answer the question whether a belief in God, or certain religious beliefs, are in one's interest to both hold and act thereon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hey Wade... nice to see you! :-)

How do you think we can determine which beliefs are in one's best interest?

While I agree is some respects, it seems clear that there are beliefs that do NOT seem to be in the best interest of someone yet one may hold onto them as true and beneficial.

Take for example the eleven year old girl who recently died because her parents were religious and believed their faith would save her. Most of us would suggest their beliefs were NOT in the best interest of the girl yet, perhaps they believe that she is saved and all is well? I don't know but certainly they believed in God and faith enough to allow her to die.

Similarly, we see suicide bombers who believe their actions are in the best interest of themselves and their families, but others would certainly disagree.

I don't know the answer just pondering and wondering... :-)

~dancer~

Good question...and I am pleased to read your comments again as well.

I don't know if there is any definitive or generally accepted answer. However, one of the ways I find useful in determining which beliefs may be in my best interest or not is to measure them against such admittedly subjective standards as whether or not the beliefs enhances my capacity to become the very best person possible and to fulfill the basic human needs to love and be loved, to value and be valued, and to provide meaningfulness for self and others.

It also helps me to keep in mind the legal adage that "extreem cases make for bad law". Since most of our decisions in life regarding what is in our best interest tend not to put one's life in mortal peril (as in the case of the eleven year-old daughter and the terrorists), I am not sure it wise to craft practical answers to the question at hand using cases of mortal decisions, rather than in terms of more mere day-today life choices. By using the latter, I believe the strategy I suggested above may be reasonable and "workable".

But, I am open to other suggestions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi Wade,

I used extreme examples to demonstrate that the world is filled with those of very different beliefs and opinions regarding what is right and wrong.

Like you, and I think the rest of the world, I too try to live in harmony with what I consider holy/good/right/honorable... but as you point out, it is subjective. What seems right to me, may be viewed as completely wrong by others, and what seems very wrong to me may feel Godly to some.

I think it may go back to our hard-wiring. Not that this explains it all but certainly does seem like a component to belief. Do you agree?

The vast majority of people embrace the religion/beliefs of their parents which is a good indicator that one's religious preference is more than a simple choice.

Why is it that some people can let go of beliefs while others can't?

Why is it that some people hold to beliefs (believing they are correct/true), that others clearly view as dangerous and hurtful?

~dancer~

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hey TD,

I have sometimes wondered if religion is more a right-brained phenomenon than a left-brained one. I see a lot of beauty in religion and faith-- it's very easy for me to sit back in a Catholic service or two and appreciate it-- but I also get sick of it real fast and overanalyze it to the point where it's no fun anymore.

-Chris

[_BishopRic]

Why is it that some people can let go of beliefs while others can't?

Why is it that some people hold to beliefs (believing they are correct/true), that others clearly view as dangerous and hurtful?

~dancer~

I think there is a "spiritual momentum" that we have, and certain things increase the momentum, and others attempt to deflect it. There is much in Mormonism that serves to increase that momentum (missions, temple marriage, tithing, lay ministry, etc.) -- even if it may not be viewed as such.

So the way I see it, the scales need to have enough on the "other side" to force one to consider a change. For me, there had to be both emotional and logical reasons to leave. I didn't consider the logical (ie, didn't study the "anti" material) until I had an emotional event that triggered my study. I have found that to be a common pattern in the exmo support groups.

I also think one of the reasons for the increase in church resignations is the ease of getting information -- without causing suspicion. The internet, books, and media are so much more open to discuss religious issues today that exposure to both sides is much more common.

Ultimately, it is a matter of survival and living comfort. If staying in the church gives one a feeling of safety and avoids pain (including emotional), they usually do. When that option causes more pain than it relieves, that's when we leave.

[_guy sajer]

One of my favorite topics is why and how we believe... more and more we are learning the neurological component to belief.

It seems belief is an actual "hard wiring" sort of phenomenon in the brain.

What Eric Hoffer describes is now being confirmed in a very physical and concrete way.

In Andrew Newberg's book, Born to Believe, he writes,

"The brain is a stubborn organ. Once its primary set of beliefs has been established, the brain finds it difficult to interact opposing ideas and beliefs. This has profound consequences for individuals and society and helps to explain why some people cannot abandon destructive beliefs, be they religious, political, or psychological."

Also, in some fascinating research at Emory, using fMRIs to study brain activity, looking at how our "political brains" work, Drew Western, director of clinical psychology concludes, "essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and the activation of positive ones."

And finally, a quote from an article in SHIFT, summarizing the research, "And so it appears that we avoid the discomfort of contradictory facts when they challenge a particular decision or belief - denial equals emotional homeostasis. This observation has a strong bearing on how one confronts an existing world view and considers ways to change it."

So, while we are learning of the hard-wiring component, my question is, what makes some people able to release long held beliefs while others cannot? It seems that be far, the easier and more "normal" way to live is to continue to believe and those who are able to release belief are the rare exception?

I would love to hear your thoughts and ask that the discussion expand beyond just the LDS mindset if possible. (I think the same dynamics that keep believers in the LDS church are those that keep people in JW, Scientology, Catholicism, EV, or any other religion, and the same factors that allow people to release belief in the LDS church are those that allow the release of belief in other religions, but if you disagree feel free to share your thoughts)!

Also, what do you think enabled you to release belief (if you have done so) while others do not? Or if you are a believer, do you think those who release belief in a religion have some sort of neurological abnormality or something? And, given that there is a neurological hard wiring to belief, how much of belief is a choice?

(I hold that belief is not just a choice due to the fact that I have yet to hear anyone who can choose to believe the Santa story is true). :-)

What are the implications of the inability of some to release damaging or untrue beliefs to society? In some respects I think this hard wiring process has become maladaptive given that some beliefs may in fact be those that can potentially destroy our world. Might it be important for us to learn the dynamics and process of releasing beliefs that are clearly untrue and damaging?

Any thoughts or insights?

~dancer~

I am a believer in the hard-wired theory of belief. That is, certain people are hard-wired for belief, others hard-wired for non-belief, to put it very simply. I'm hard-wired for non-belief. While it took me decades to break free, I believe that regardless of the belief system I was born in to (e.g., Amish, Hasidism, Islam, J-W, etc) I would have eventually broke free of it. I feel no spiritual needs whatsoever, and I find ALL religions deeply unsatisfactory.

For what it's worth.