Gazelam wrote:Ill work on this tomorrow for you moniker. Did my link above to the post I made to Tal offer you any insights?
Yah, it did -- also more questions. I'll come back to them tomorrow... I'm sleepy...
The Holy Ghost -- How Does This Work?
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_Boaz & Lidia
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:31 am
Many, many, LDS over use the term "felt The Spirit ®".Moniker wrote:Blixa wrote:Boaz & Lidia wrote:The Holy Ghost ® is the name that Mormons have given to the self initiated and group induced emotional epiphany that they use to confirm their faith.
a.k.a. "heartsell"
To Blixa or B&L,
I've heard of the Holy Ghost from mainstream Christians, yet, I don't think I've ever heard it used in the same way the LDS use it. Are there constant emotional epiphanies? Is this just a very emotionally charged religion? I always thought of the LDS as very straight laced, by the book, almost uptight sort of religion -- learning about the emotional aspect of it was odd, to me.
Ever get goose bumps? If it is during a LDS activity, the LDS will call it "The Spirit ®".
Ever get a surge of good feeling? Self affirmation? If it is during a LDS activity, the LDS will call it "The Spirit ®".
Ever have a premonition about something? If it is during a LDS activity or is faith promoting, the LDS will call it "the whisperings of The Spirit ®".
Ever overcome by emotions for no reason? If it is during a LDS activity, the LDS will call it "The Spirit ®".
For returned missionaries who prayed about the first girl they dated after their mission and got a surge of ... ehhh heeem... emotions, they will call it "The Spirit ®" telling them that this is their eternal mate. SERIOUS.
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
Mormonism really is an interesting religion. Maybe all religions are interesting if you probe them deeply enough, but I was never intrigued by Methodism (the church of my youth) or Episcopalianism (the church I joined after the LDS church for a brief period in my liberal theist phase prior to complete atheism) like I have been with Mormonism. It has these apparent contradictions, and you’ve just noted one. Yes, Mormonism is straight laced and uptight. They are supposed to “put their shoulder to the wheel, push along”. No griping. You have the One True Gospel, so how dare you whine or be depressed? Buck Up! Endure to the end! The weekly services are mundane and incredibly boring. There is no paid ministry, so there is no priest or minister who has studied for years and been trained in effective speaking; it’s just members who get assigned a topic for Sunday. It’s the same topics, over and over and over. The material taught in manuals is strictly controlled by the Correlation Committee, and it is kept at a simplistic level, and the topics are regularly recycled. Over and over.
Yet, there is this “other” side to Mormonism. The Other Side to these boring, mundane services that disdain pomp, ritual, and ceremony, is the temple experience, which is full of strange ritual and ceremony and its own form of pomp. It’s so strange going to the temple for the first time as a Mormon. What the heck? How could this strange thing be a part of this religion? It seems so contradictory and weird. And yes, there is this underlying nurturing of this emotional state, The Spirit. Despite the adamant denials of internet defenders of the faith, the open manifestation of The Spirit among Mormons is definitely emotion. Once a month, Mormons fast and then “bear their testimonies” to each other at church. The testimonies can be rote and boring, but sincere (the manifestation of sincerity comes across as “feeling the spirit” – like you really, really, really believe the things you’re saying, you’re not just saying them because you’ve been taught to say them your entire life). Then other testimonies are dripping with emotion, barely held back tears, which is also “feeling the spirit”. It seems such a contrast to their otherwise regimented lives and services.
Here’s how the idea works. All human beings have the Light of Christ, which is Christ’s spirit resonating across the entire universe due to the fact that it is through the power of Christ that all things are and continue to be. We all have access to this because we all “kept our first estates”, which means that we all were on Jesus’ side on the pre-existence, we didn’t side with Lucifer in the ‘war in heaven’. This Light of Christ manifests as the human conscience, telling us the difference between right and wrong, and also is what people in “not one true” religions feel and misinterpret as telling them THEIR churches are right.
But Mormons have something beyond this. Mormons have the Uber Spirit, the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is one of the most confusing and ill-formulated members of the Godhead. He is A God, like Heavenly Father and Jesus, but doesn’t have a body. Supposedly he’ll get one at the end of the millennium, or something like that. But not having a body hasn’t prevented him from getting to the full blown GOD status, despite Mormon teachings that you have to have a body to get to full blown GOD status. So the job of the bodiless member of the godhead called The Holy Ghost is two-fold – to testify to ALL people, even nonmembers, of the Truth of the Mormon gospel, and to be the “constant companion” of worthy members of the church. It’s like the Light of Christ on steroids. If you are worthy enough, you will have the Holy Ghost with you at all times. The Holy Ghost is the font of all knowledge and wisdom. The Holy Ghost will help you be smarter, learn more, achieve more, and also whisper to you the right thing to do in just about any circumstance. If you have a feeling that you shouldn’t do something, or you should do something, it’s the Holy Ghost speaking to you. If an idea comes to you suddenly, it’s the Holy Ghost inspiring you. The Holy Ghost is supposed to strengthen and comfort you in your trials. Perhaps this is part of the reason that Mormons are wary of and even intolerant of unpleasant states like depression – if you had the Holy Ghost with you, you wouldn’t be depressed. So is depression a sort of admission that you don’t have the Holy Ghost with you, and implied state of less worthiness? Maybe.
The problem is that, like all other completely internal states, Mormons don’t really know if what they are feeling is the same thing other Mormons are feeling which they then ascribe to the Holy Ghost. LDS scriptures and teachings try to quantify it, with phrases like “burning in the bosom” or the “still small voice”. What I believe Mormons call the Holy Ghost is a release of endorphins due to a cultivated state, which gives you that momentary endorphin “buzz”. And the “still small voice” is simply Mormons heightening the internal talk all human beings experience, and vesting it with divine origin. There have been brain studies done that show that human beings can “hear” their own internal voice and feel as if it is coming from an external source. It’s obvious when that happens in extreme cases of mental illness, but the similar phenomenon can occur in all of us. We get a sudden flash of an idea, and don’t know where it came from. Again, people who study the brain say that it comes from the fact that our brains are always working in the background, working at resolving our problems, even when we are not consciously focusing on those finding those resolutions. But beyond my speculations on what is actually occurring, the fact remains that I only know what I experienced, and have no idea if it is the same or similar thing other Mormons experience. TBMs will rush in to assure me it’s not, since I left the faith, it’s clear to them I didn’t experience the REAL DEAL, so they’re going to assume my experiences would pale beside theirs.
There were only a few times when I experienced a striking “witness” from the Holy Ghost. These were the full-blown spiritual epiphanies, where I felt certain God had just communicated with me. My most obvious example is praying about the Book of Mormon as an investigator. It was like suddenly every cell in my body was vibrating, humming, “turned on”. I felt filled with light. It’s like how I imagine an electrical current of endorphins would feel like if you plugged yourself in to an endorphin outlet. I would try to cultivate that state again, usually without success. I felt it more often when I was fasting. The rest of the time, I tried my best to hear the “still small voice” on a daily basis, but was never completely certain that it WAS the “still small voice” versus my own brain’s “still small voice”. I knew that other members, like me, struggled with this as well. But I believed that there were those among us who, through worthiness, had mastered really hearing the “still small voice”, and there are certainly Mormons who encourage others to believe that as well. Will Schryver, with his Super Spirit Detector, comes to mind. I always assumed that General Authorities, especially the prophet and apostles, had mastered this art of communication with God. That’s part of the reason learning about the confused teachings of and immoral behavior of prophets unsettled me – not that I expected them to be perfect or always right, but that I believed that there people who really had mastered this Holy Ghost thing. Knowing that even they did not have it mastered opened everything to a level of analysis and skepticism I would not engage in earlier.
Mormons are taught to phrase their questions to Heavenly Father in a straightforward, yes/no manner so that they HG can give them the thumbs up or thumbs down in prayer. Of course, they can also just seek the “inspiration of the HG”, but if you’re looking for a specific answer, you try and phrase it in a yes/no manner. This was a constant source of confusion for me, because I rarely felt anything strong enough to be certain it was the HG and not just my own thoughts or wishes. One example is when I prayed about whether or not to marry my exhusband. Of course I felt a rush of endorphins and “felt good” about it – I was in love with him. That’s what being in love does. But was it the Holy Ghost? I chose to believe it was. Yet he turned out to be emotionally abusive and mentally ill. Thanks, Holy Ghost!!!
There is a hierarchy within Mormonism that supposedly resolves the problem of getting different answers. Husbands are the Big Leaders of the family, so wives should accede to his Holy Ghost answer if there is a conflict. Prophets are the Biggest Leaders of all, so everyone has to accede to their Holy Ghost answers. If your answer was different than the Big Leader, your “radio reception” is messed up, likely due to unworthiness. And the littlest thing can make you unworthy, too, not just major infractions. Of course, it’s possible that the Big Leader’s reception is messed up, too, but you’ll still be blessed for following the hierarchy. God will sort that out later.
The idea that God can, and does, communicate clearly to mankind is the most foundational idea of Mormonism, so when I realized what a bunch of crock that it, it led to my loss of faith. Of course knowing how murky the whole Holy Ghost thing was for me, and how unreliable those “answers” often ended up created the backdrop for losing faith in the entire concept later when I found out, through studying early church history, that the prophets didn’t have it figured out any more than I did, which was manifest through their confusing teachings.
Yet, there is this “other” side to Mormonism. The Other Side to these boring, mundane services that disdain pomp, ritual, and ceremony, is the temple experience, which is full of strange ritual and ceremony and its own form of pomp. It’s so strange going to the temple for the first time as a Mormon. What the heck? How could this strange thing be a part of this religion? It seems so contradictory and weird. And yes, there is this underlying nurturing of this emotional state, The Spirit. Despite the adamant denials of internet defenders of the faith, the open manifestation of The Spirit among Mormons is definitely emotion. Once a month, Mormons fast and then “bear their testimonies” to each other at church. The testimonies can be rote and boring, but sincere (the manifestation of sincerity comes across as “feeling the spirit” – like you really, really, really believe the things you’re saying, you’re not just saying them because you’ve been taught to say them your entire life). Then other testimonies are dripping with emotion, barely held back tears, which is also “feeling the spirit”. It seems such a contrast to their otherwise regimented lives and services.
Here’s how the idea works. All human beings have the Light of Christ, which is Christ’s spirit resonating across the entire universe due to the fact that it is through the power of Christ that all things are and continue to be. We all have access to this because we all “kept our first estates”, which means that we all were on Jesus’ side on the pre-existence, we didn’t side with Lucifer in the ‘war in heaven’. This Light of Christ manifests as the human conscience, telling us the difference between right and wrong, and also is what people in “not one true” religions feel and misinterpret as telling them THEIR churches are right.
But Mormons have something beyond this. Mormons have the Uber Spirit, the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is one of the most confusing and ill-formulated members of the Godhead. He is A God, like Heavenly Father and Jesus, but doesn’t have a body. Supposedly he’ll get one at the end of the millennium, or something like that. But not having a body hasn’t prevented him from getting to the full blown GOD status, despite Mormon teachings that you have to have a body to get to full blown GOD status. So the job of the bodiless member of the godhead called The Holy Ghost is two-fold – to testify to ALL people, even nonmembers, of the Truth of the Mormon gospel, and to be the “constant companion” of worthy members of the church. It’s like the Light of Christ on steroids. If you are worthy enough, you will have the Holy Ghost with you at all times. The Holy Ghost is the font of all knowledge and wisdom. The Holy Ghost will help you be smarter, learn more, achieve more, and also whisper to you the right thing to do in just about any circumstance. If you have a feeling that you shouldn’t do something, or you should do something, it’s the Holy Ghost speaking to you. If an idea comes to you suddenly, it’s the Holy Ghost inspiring you. The Holy Ghost is supposed to strengthen and comfort you in your trials. Perhaps this is part of the reason that Mormons are wary of and even intolerant of unpleasant states like depression – if you had the Holy Ghost with you, you wouldn’t be depressed. So is depression a sort of admission that you don’t have the Holy Ghost with you, and implied state of less worthiness? Maybe.
The problem is that, like all other completely internal states, Mormons don’t really know if what they are feeling is the same thing other Mormons are feeling which they then ascribe to the Holy Ghost. LDS scriptures and teachings try to quantify it, with phrases like “burning in the bosom” or the “still small voice”. What I believe Mormons call the Holy Ghost is a release of endorphins due to a cultivated state, which gives you that momentary endorphin “buzz”. And the “still small voice” is simply Mormons heightening the internal talk all human beings experience, and vesting it with divine origin. There have been brain studies done that show that human beings can “hear” their own internal voice and feel as if it is coming from an external source. It’s obvious when that happens in extreme cases of mental illness, but the similar phenomenon can occur in all of us. We get a sudden flash of an idea, and don’t know where it came from. Again, people who study the brain say that it comes from the fact that our brains are always working in the background, working at resolving our problems, even when we are not consciously focusing on those finding those resolutions. But beyond my speculations on what is actually occurring, the fact remains that I only know what I experienced, and have no idea if it is the same or similar thing other Mormons experience. TBMs will rush in to assure me it’s not, since I left the faith, it’s clear to them I didn’t experience the REAL DEAL, so they’re going to assume my experiences would pale beside theirs.
There were only a few times when I experienced a striking “witness” from the Holy Ghost. These were the full-blown spiritual epiphanies, where I felt certain God had just communicated with me. My most obvious example is praying about the Book of Mormon as an investigator. It was like suddenly every cell in my body was vibrating, humming, “turned on”. I felt filled with light. It’s like how I imagine an electrical current of endorphins would feel like if you plugged yourself in to an endorphin outlet. I would try to cultivate that state again, usually without success. I felt it more often when I was fasting. The rest of the time, I tried my best to hear the “still small voice” on a daily basis, but was never completely certain that it WAS the “still small voice” versus my own brain’s “still small voice”. I knew that other members, like me, struggled with this as well. But I believed that there were those among us who, through worthiness, had mastered really hearing the “still small voice”, and there are certainly Mormons who encourage others to believe that as well. Will Schryver, with his Super Spirit Detector, comes to mind. I always assumed that General Authorities, especially the prophet and apostles, had mastered this art of communication with God. That’s part of the reason learning about the confused teachings of and immoral behavior of prophets unsettled me – not that I expected them to be perfect or always right, but that I believed that there people who really had mastered this Holy Ghost thing. Knowing that even they did not have it mastered opened everything to a level of analysis and skepticism I would not engage in earlier.
Mormons are taught to phrase their questions to Heavenly Father in a straightforward, yes/no manner so that they HG can give them the thumbs up or thumbs down in prayer. Of course, they can also just seek the “inspiration of the HG”, but if you’re looking for a specific answer, you try and phrase it in a yes/no manner. This was a constant source of confusion for me, because I rarely felt anything strong enough to be certain it was the HG and not just my own thoughts or wishes. One example is when I prayed about whether or not to marry my exhusband. Of course I felt a rush of endorphins and “felt good” about it – I was in love with him. That’s what being in love does. But was it the Holy Ghost? I chose to believe it was. Yet he turned out to be emotionally abusive and mentally ill. Thanks, Holy Ghost!!!
There is a hierarchy within Mormonism that supposedly resolves the problem of getting different answers. Husbands are the Big Leaders of the family, so wives should accede to his Holy Ghost answer if there is a conflict. Prophets are the Biggest Leaders of all, so everyone has to accede to their Holy Ghost answers. If your answer was different than the Big Leader, your “radio reception” is messed up, likely due to unworthiness. And the littlest thing can make you unworthy, too, not just major infractions. Of course, it’s possible that the Big Leader’s reception is messed up, too, but you’ll still be blessed for following the hierarchy. God will sort that out later.
The idea that God can, and does, communicate clearly to mankind is the most foundational idea of Mormonism, so when I realized what a bunch of crock that it, it led to my loss of faith. Of course knowing how murky the whole Holy Ghost thing was for me, and how unreliable those “answers” often ended up created the backdrop for losing faith in the entire concept later when I found out, through studying early church history, that the prophets didn’t have it figured out any more than I did, which was manifest through their confusing teachings.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_Moniker
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm
Beastie, THANK YOU! Wow, you know I think this explains A LOT about how LDS and even ex-LDS reacted to me and my emotions a few months ago. LDS would be uncomfortable with me 'cause, well, if I'm down and out I've no HG (I've been told more than a couple of times to seek it) and ex-LDS probably view anyone airing their emotions as a sort of testimony meeting experience... I was confused by reactions to me. Anyway, so, for those that have trials in the Church it absolutely makes sense (when you have the thought that the HG is earned in some manner) that if you lose the HG you've done something naughty and it's your own fault if you're depressed, have addiction, etc... Hmm... what a mess.
I just really didn't understand the entire emotional aspect of the religion.
I wonder if the testimony meetings just feed the emotional charge -- someone gets up and weeps and then a few other people shed tears, then they get up and weep -- seems like there would be a lot of emotional manipulation of sorts and everyone is getting sucked into it. Do you think they may just feed upon each testimony and get more worked up and emotionally charged?
I didn't realize that the HG was a God as well for LDS. I had heard the light of Christ mentioned, as well, and didn't quite understand how this was different than the HG. You know I saw Blixa mention that LDS thought they had more wisdom than non-LDS and I didn't understand this emanated from the HG, either. This really explains a lot and sort of clues me into why people kept condescendingly telling me I needed to get it....
Oh, and don't worry about poor choices while being in love (it's that damn serotonin )-- you go temporarily insane. Really.
The hierarchy of the HG is interesting to me... so, apparently many practicing LDS aren't that concerned with the contradictions. It doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, yet, I suppose it does to them... in some way... I wonder if it does actually bother some and they just shove it to the back and not fret about it.
I just really didn't understand the entire emotional aspect of the religion.
I wonder if the testimony meetings just feed the emotional charge -- someone gets up and weeps and then a few other people shed tears, then they get up and weep -- seems like there would be a lot of emotional manipulation of sorts and everyone is getting sucked into it. Do you think they may just feed upon each testimony and get more worked up and emotionally charged?
I didn't realize that the HG was a God as well for LDS. I had heard the light of Christ mentioned, as well, and didn't quite understand how this was different than the HG. You know I saw Blixa mention that LDS thought they had more wisdom than non-LDS and I didn't understand this emanated from the HG, either. This really explains a lot and sort of clues me into why people kept condescendingly telling me I needed to get it....
Oh, and don't worry about poor choices while being in love (it's that damn serotonin )-- you go temporarily insane. Really.
The hierarchy of the HG is interesting to me... so, apparently many practicing LDS aren't that concerned with the contradictions. It doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, yet, I suppose it does to them... in some way... I wonder if it does actually bother some and they just shove it to the back and not fret about it.
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
Beastie, THANK YOU! Wow, you know I think this explains A LOT about how LDS and even ex-LDS reacted to me and my emotions a few months ago. LDS would be uncomfortable with me 'cause, well, if I'm down and out I've no HG (I've been told more than a couple of times to seek it) and ex-LDS probably view anyone airing their emotions as a sort of testimony meeting experience... I was confused by reactions to me. Anyway, so, for those that have trials in the Church it absolutely makes sense (when you have the thought that the HG is earned in some manner) that if you lose the HG you've done something naughty and it's your own fault if you're depressed, have addiction, etc... Hmm... what a mess.
I just really didn't understand the entire emotional aspect of the religion.
You're welcome. Mormonism is really an entire culture and a worldview, and I sympathize how difficult it must be to understand us. (including exmormons in that us due to the fact that we were still heavily influenced by Mormonism, and the cultural aspects likely still cling to us to a certain degree)
I know that when I was first exposed to the church as a 19 year old investigator, it was really confusing - not just that it was a differentu culture, but the language was also often different. Not quite as extreme as scientology-speak, however! That one blew me away, I literally had to have the "scientology dictionary" beside me and look at several times for every sentence.
I wonder if the testimony meetings just feed the emotional charge -- someone gets up and weeps and then a few other people shed tears, then they get up and weep -- seems like there would be a lot of emotional manipulation of sorts and everyone is getting sucked into it. Do you think they may just feed upon each testimony and get more worked up and emotionally charged?
Yes, it does, although no one is expressing it in an obvious fashion, except for the person bearing the testimony who may be openly crying. It's not like a pentecostal meeting where people are displaying their emotions loudly. And there's always a sprinkling of people who dislike the emotionality of testimony meeting and remind everyone that is NOT what
"the spirit" is about, even though it obviously is for many people. These people focus more on the "heightened understanding, pure knowledge" aspect of the HG.
In addition, people tend to talk about emotional-laden topics in their testimonies...like how HF helped them through a recent crisis, or some such. Or they get emotionally overwhelmed with gratitude that they have the ONE TRUTH versus the rest of the confused world. ;)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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_beastie
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 14216
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am
Sorry, had to divide up my response, my computer went wonky.
The irony is that LDS aren't demonstrably more gifted or intelligent than the rest of the nonHG endowed world, and they sometimes admit that. The leader went through a phase in the late seventies or early eighties when they were talking about how LDS ought to be making the best music, the best literature, the best art, how we ought to be excelling at EVERYTHING, and with rare exceptions, we weren't. It felt like just one more stick of guilt they were beating us with, to me. How did we have TIME to excel at ANYTHING, when we were so busy raising our gazillion kids and spending many hours every week on church callings??? But their statements made me think, and I concluded that great art is often the result of great suffering or spiritual angst, and since we LDS had "the truth" and were so daggone "happy", we didn't have that impetus to great art. But then the HG should have been our impetus...
No kidding! And this is one of my pet peeves about Mormonism, that they are taught this nonsense that God will answer them clearly in a prayer, and it will be the right answer. Yeah, you're supposed to "think it out" first, but in the end, you're relying on God to tell you what to do. So the stupid kids, usually too young to marry, "think it out" with their hormones and serotonin, and "ask God" who says YES YES YES get married!! Then, in order not to "sin" and have sex, they get married within MONTHS. And often to someone they barely know! But why worry, God said YES! I'm not surprised that LDS marriages are often only held together by mutual committment to the church, and when that falls apart at times, the marriage does.
I think they usually chalk up the contradictions to someone's "radio receiver" not being tuned in right. Unless they're already beginning to be skeptical of church claims to begin with, that is the safe way to resolve the contradictions. As I said, it doesn't even have to be major infractions to mess up your "tuning". It can even be something like being depressed. Or being angry at someone. Or feeling irritated. Or holding on to some old resentment. It is very, very easy to think up a reason why your "tuner" might be messed up, and you are taught to practically worship the church general authorities, so it's easy to assume their "tuners" are always tuned in just right. It may get messier in a marriage, because you know your spouse's "tuner" is just as messed up as yours, cuz you know their weaknesses better than your own. But the "good" Mormon thing to do is still follow the husband, unless he is OBVIOUSLY and EXTREMELY messed up, like being abusive or having word of wisdom problems. You'll still be blessed for following him, even if it turns out it WAS his "tuner" that was messed up more than yours.
In fact, general authorities often tell stories that explicitly share this idea with members. I remember one story told at general conference, about a member of the church who received "revelation" that the bishop was wrong about something.. I think it was calling someone to a certain calling. So he went to the bishop and told the bishop about his revelation contradicting the bishop's, and that the bishop was wrong. The bishop then proceeded to "quiz" the member about how often he attended church, and whether or not he followed the word of wisdom. WHOOPS! Turns out that the guy's radio receiver was all messed up!! See, children? Follow your leaders! I'll try to find that old talk, it's such a perfect example.
I didn't realize that the HG was a God as well for LDS. I had heard the light of Christ mentioned, as well, and didn't quite understand how this was different than the HG. You know I saw Blixa mention that LDS thought they had more wisdom than non-LDS and I didn't understand this emanated from the HG, either. This really explains a lot and sort of clues me into why people kept condescendingly telling me I needed to get it....
The irony is that LDS aren't demonstrably more gifted or intelligent than the rest of the nonHG endowed world, and they sometimes admit that. The leader went through a phase in the late seventies or early eighties when they were talking about how LDS ought to be making the best music, the best literature, the best art, how we ought to be excelling at EVERYTHING, and with rare exceptions, we weren't. It felt like just one more stick of guilt they were beating us with, to me. How did we have TIME to excel at ANYTHING, when we were so busy raising our gazillion kids and spending many hours every week on church callings??? But their statements made me think, and I concluded that great art is often the result of great suffering or spiritual angst, and since we LDS had "the truth" and were so daggone "happy", we didn't have that impetus to great art. But then the HG should have been our impetus...
Oh, and don't worry about poor choices while being in love (it's that damn serotonin )-- you go temporarily insane. Really.
No kidding! And this is one of my pet peeves about Mormonism, that they are taught this nonsense that God will answer them clearly in a prayer, and it will be the right answer. Yeah, you're supposed to "think it out" first, but in the end, you're relying on God to tell you what to do. So the stupid kids, usually too young to marry, "think it out" with their hormones and serotonin, and "ask God" who says YES YES YES get married!! Then, in order not to "sin" and have sex, they get married within MONTHS. And often to someone they barely know! But why worry, God said YES! I'm not surprised that LDS marriages are often only held together by mutual committment to the church, and when that falls apart at times, the marriage does.
The hierarchy of the HG is interesting to me... so, apparently many practicing LDS aren't that concerned with the contradictions. It doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, yet, I suppose it does to them... in some way... I wonder if it does actually bother some and they just shove it to the back and not fret about it.
I think they usually chalk up the contradictions to someone's "radio receiver" not being tuned in right. Unless they're already beginning to be skeptical of church claims to begin with, that is the safe way to resolve the contradictions. As I said, it doesn't even have to be major infractions to mess up your "tuning". It can even be something like being depressed. Or being angry at someone. Or feeling irritated. Or holding on to some old resentment. It is very, very easy to think up a reason why your "tuner" might be messed up, and you are taught to practically worship the church general authorities, so it's easy to assume their "tuners" are always tuned in just right. It may get messier in a marriage, because you know your spouse's "tuner" is just as messed up as yours, cuz you know their weaknesses better than your own. But the "good" Mormon thing to do is still follow the husband, unless he is OBVIOUSLY and EXTREMELY messed up, like being abusive or having word of wisdom problems. You'll still be blessed for following him, even if it turns out it WAS his "tuner" that was messed up more than yours.
In fact, general authorities often tell stories that explicitly share this idea with members. I remember one story told at general conference, about a member of the church who received "revelation" that the bishop was wrong about something.. I think it was calling someone to a certain calling. So he went to the bishop and told the bishop about his revelation contradicting the bishop's, and that the bishop was wrong. The bishop then proceeded to "quiz" the member about how often he attended church, and whether or not he followed the word of wisdom. WHOOPS! Turns out that the guy's radio receiver was all messed up!! See, children? Follow your leaders! I'll try to find that old talk, it's such a perfect example.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Penn & Teller
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Penn & Teller
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_cinepro
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4502
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm
The most interesting thing about the Holy Ghost are all the interesting excuses LDS have to make up to explain why He doesn't do what they say He does.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and didn't get an answer? Keep praying.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and felt it wasn't true? Keep praying (or, you wouldn't have accepted a positive answer, so God didn't give it to you)
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and received a "witness it was true" (i.e. good feelings), now you have doubts and get bad feelings about the book? Ignore the new feelings and base your entire life on the previous ones.
How does the Holy Ghost "feel" (or communicate with you)? It's different for everyone. But it always feels really good. Unless the answer is "no", or it's a warning. Then you feel uneasy.
When you see a movie or read a book that makes you really emotional, that isn't the Holy Ghost (unless it's a Church movie or book). But if you feel the same "emotion" when sitting in Church, that is the Holy Ghost.
An often used analogy among LDS is that the Holy Ghost is like "salt". You can't explain what salt tastes like to someone, but you definitely know what it tastes like. This analogy is weak because salt has a consistent, reliable result. A more apt analogy would be to say that the HG is like the taste of "spice". A spice could be oregano, or basil, or cayenne pepper, or salt, or pepper. And one person might feel cayanne pepper at the same time another is feeling nutmeg. Sure, they're all "spice", but it isn't consistent between people and experiences.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and didn't get an answer? Keep praying.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and felt it wasn't true? Keep praying (or, you wouldn't have accepted a positive answer, so God didn't give it to you)
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and received a "witness it was true" (i.e. good feelings), now you have doubts and get bad feelings about the book? Ignore the new feelings and base your entire life on the previous ones.
How does the Holy Ghost "feel" (or communicate with you)? It's different for everyone. But it always feels really good. Unless the answer is "no", or it's a warning. Then you feel uneasy.
When you see a movie or read a book that makes you really emotional, that isn't the Holy Ghost (unless it's a Church movie or book). But if you feel the same "emotion" when sitting in Church, that is the Holy Ghost.
An often used analogy among LDS is that the Holy Ghost is like "salt". You can't explain what salt tastes like to someone, but you definitely know what it tastes like. This analogy is weak because salt has a consistent, reliable result. A more apt analogy would be to say that the HG is like the taste of "spice". A spice could be oregano, or basil, or cayenne pepper, or salt, or pepper. And one person might feel cayanne pepper at the same time another is feeling nutmeg. Sure, they're all "spice", but it isn't consistent between people and experiences.
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_antishock8
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2425
- Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am
Boaz & Lidia wrote:The Holy Ghost ® is the name that Mormons have given to the self initiated and group induced emotional epiphany that they use to confirm their faith.
The funny thing is that as long as the eiphany matches their beliefs then it really was the Holy Spirit. If the epiphany doesn't match their beliefs then it was self-induced, or more likely from the Evil Spirit.
Funny how that works.
Regardless, it's easy to see how the fruits of the Spirit, ie... Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are normal, natural, and non-religious in nature. The idea that you can tell you're experiencing a supernatural phenomenon as experienced through utterly natural emotions is ridiculous.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.
Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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_Moniker
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm
cinepro wrote:The most interesting thing about the Holy Ghost are all the interesting excuses LDS have to make up to explain why He doesn't do what they say He does.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and didn't get an answer? Keep praying.
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and felt it wasn't true? Keep praying (or, you wouldn't have accepted a positive answer, so God didn't give it to you)
Prayed about the Book of Mormon and received a "witness it was true" (I.e. good feelings), now you have doubts and get bad feelings about the book? Ignore the new feelings and base your entire life on the previous ones.
How does the Holy Ghost "feel" (or communicate with you)? It's different for everyone. But it always feels really good. Unless the answer is "no", or it's a warning. Then you feel uneasy.
When you see a movie or read a book that makes you really emotional, that isn't the Holy Ghost (unless it's a Church movie or book). But if you feel the same "emotion" when sitting in Church, that is the Holy Ghost.
An often used analogy among LDS is that the Holy Ghost is like "salt". You can't explain what salt tastes like to someone, but you definitely know what it tastes like. This analogy is weak because salt has a consistent, reliable result. A more apt analogy would be to say that the HG is like the taste of "spice". A spice could be oregano, or basil, or cayenne pepper, or salt, or pepper. And one person might feel cayanne pepper at the same time another is feeling nutmeg. Sure, they're all "spice", but it isn't consistent between people and experiences.
I have noticed the part where people are told they're just not doing it the right way. If it's a "YES!" -- it's the HG... if it's a "No!" Try again..... *insert wacko smilie here*
Earlier I posted what happened to me when I was posting on MAD and I read the Book of Mormon (the part in Alma)-- I think it didn't work right for me.... :)
Yet, I edited my earlier post 'cause it made me look (more like a) cuckoo...