Why is a faith a virtue.

[_asbestosman]

Elder Oaks talk (right now: Sat. afternoon) might be of interest for this. He's saying that science and intellectual pondering isn't sufficient. We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means. We can be just as sure about it as scientists can about science.

[_Mercury]

Elder Oaks talk (right now: Sat. afternoon) might be of interest for this. He's saying that science and intellectual pondering isn't sufficient. We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means. We can be just as sure about it as scientists can about science.

It confuses the matter AB, not clarifies it.

[_Tarski]

Elder Oaks talk (right now: Sat. afternoon) might be of interest for this. He's saying that science and intellectual pondering isn't sufficient. We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means. We can be just as sure about it as scientists can about science.

Utter nonsense!!!

He should be embarrassed. Totally indefensible. I would like to see him debate a philosopher of epistemology on this. I would debate him. What possible rational arguments could he have for that. Did he give any????

Subjective feelings do not provide warrant for beliefs. This is so very obvious.

Look at all the religions founded on these mystical experiences, flashes, revelations, dreams etc.
The variety of contradicting nonsense is astounding.

Subjective certainty or strong feelings of being convinced do not equal knowledge.

This is the very reason we have science in the first place to overcome these contradicting metaphysical insights that flourish with out science--he is proposing 1000 year step backwards.

I already know he is wrong by example. Its over, done, finished!


PS, did I make my position clear? The following sentence is the worst sentence I have heard in, well, forever:
We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means. We can be just as sure about it as scientists can about science
Did he really say it that way?

[_asbestosman]

We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means
Did he really say it that way?

Not quite. I ran a couple of his sentences together because I was listening and typing at the same time. Thos Holy Ghost was in one sentence and the "spiritual truths through spiritual means" (maybe not a direct quote) was either in the next sentence or the one after that.

Anyhow, I was thinking about faith a bit more and I remember that the Book of Mormon says that we should have faith in things that are true. Of course if we know it's true then we don't need faith so I figure that can't be how it works (infinite recursion, turtles, etc.). I thought then that the purpose of faith was to help us decide in the face of uncertainty. If some evidence points one way and some evidence points elsewhere, perhaps that's where a leap of faith is needed.

While there is a huge difference between having faith that the sun will shine tomorrow and having faith that Jesus was resurrected, perhaps there is still some similarity between it as far as having to believe something based on incomplete information. Perhaps though the first is more justified because it is more certain while the other is less justified based on being less certain. I have no faith in the celestial teapot and most would say such is justified.

In any case, one aspect of faith I'll never quite understand is why? Why do we need faith? Why do we need faith if Satan was able to fall despite being able to see? Why do we need faith despite the many children who are saved by dying before the age of 8 (and presumably before they had to exercise faith like I am supposed to)? Why do we need faith if we can't be judged so much for things we are ignorant about? Nobody ever really tells me.

(Speaking of conference, you all missed President Monson wiggling his ears in the priesthood session. That was pretty funny).

[_Moniker]

Elder Oaks talk (right now: Sat. afternoon) might be of interest for this. He's saying that science and intellectual pondering isn't sufficient. We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means. We can be just as sure about it as scientists can about science.

What are spiritual truths???

[_asbestosman]

What are spiritual truths???

I think in Elder Oaks is referring to things such as "Jesus is our Savior" or that, "The Book of Mormon is the word of God".

[_Tarski]

We need the Holy Ghost to know spiritual truths through spiritual means
Did he really say it that way?

Not quite. I ran a couple of his sentences together because I was listening and typing at the same time. Thos Holy Ghost was in one sentence and the "spiritual truths through spiritual means" (maybe not a direct quote) was either in the next sentence or the one after that.

Anyhow, I was thinking about faith a bit more and I remember that the Book of Mormon says that we should have faith in things that are true. Of course if we know it's true then we don't need faith so I figure that can't be how it works (infinite recursion, turtles, etc.). I thought then that the purpose of faith was to help us decide in the face of uncertainty. If some evidence points one way and some evidence points elsewhere, perhaps that's where a leap of faith is needed.

While there is a huge difference between having faith that the sun will shine tomorrow and having faith that Jesus was resurrected, perhaps there is still some similarity between it as far as having to believe something based on incomplete information. Perhaps though the first is more justified because it is more certain while the other is less justified based on being less certain. I have no faith in the celestial teapot and most would say such is justified.

In any case, one aspect of faith I'll never quite understand is why? Why do we need faith? Why do we need faith if Satan was able to fall despite being able to see? Why do we need faith despite the many children who are saved by dying before the age of 8 (and presumably before they had to exercise faith like I am supposed to)? Why do we need faith if we can't be judged so much for things we are ignorant about? Nobody ever really tells me.

(Speaking of conference, you all missed President Monson wiggling his ears in the priesthood session. That was pretty funny).

Sorry. The part that I could not beleive was this "We can be just as sure about it (by the HG) as scientists can about science"

The comparison of inner wisperings to science was was got me riled

[_asbestosman]

Sorry. The part that I could not beleive was this "We can be just as sure about it (by the HG) as scientists can about science"

The comparison of inner wisperings to science was was got me riled

He did make the comparison knowledge from the Holy Ghost with science, but I don't recall his precise wording.

[_Tarski]

Sorry. The part that I could not beleive was this "We can be just as sure about it (by the HG) as scientists can about science"

The comparison of inner wisperings to science was was got me riled

He did make the comparison knowledge from the Holy Ghost with science, but I don't recall his precise wording.

Is there any example of someone gaining detailed clear knowledge (expressed in ordinary language) about something by purely spiritual means that was then independently verified later by objective means? Ever? How often? Better than chance?

[_asbestosman]

Is there any example of someone gaining detailed clear knowledge (expressed in ordinary language) about something by purely spiritual means that was then independently verified later by objective means? Ever?

I'm sure you're aware of such stories being told by many a member about how they were prompted to do X and later found out why that was a good thing.

Better than chance?

I'm not even sure how one could measure that in the stories I've heard. Let's put it this way, better than palm-reading, tarot cards, or a hooroscope? I honestly could not say either way. I don't think it's ever really been measured. Furthermore all misses are instantly discounted (whether consciously dismissed or merely forgotten) so there really is no basis for me to make a call on that one.