Perspectives

[_Inconceivable]

I have started to drink Pepsi for the first time in 30 years.

You have started down the slippery road my friend. It is litered with "those who think young". While its extra sweetness may be appealing to those youthful sweet tooths, Coke is the drink of the generation who saw us through the great depression and into the golden 50s.

ha.

Carbonated drinks taste like crap and I hate the stuff. But I do drink Pepsi/Coke etc from time to time when I need a boost. I go for water or fruit juice otherwise. I'm in decent shape. I'd like to keep it that way.

I'm giving myself some time to reflect on the efficacy of each of the principles I've been taught as a Mormon. I've come to learn that all those principles I have remained true to are not unique or originated within Mormonism.

[_Sethbag]

The main trouble I have with the notion of "dialogue" between the church and "questioners", ie: people on whom it is beginning to dawn that the church isn't all it's cracked up to be, is that the church isn't actually true, and the church wants people to think that it is.

Hence, any dialogue from the church's side is going to consist of rationalizations of evidence that ought to persuade a "questioner" to realize that the church is really just a manmade institution like every other church out there. The church doesn't want people to believe this, and so they'll come up with responses to questions that still lead to the "faithful" conclusion that the church is really true.

This is one major beef I have with Bushman's book. He knows all this history that is really the history of a guy pretending to be a prophet, who created a church, and who abused his position within that church to amass a private, secret harem of women who would sleep with him, etc. He knows about the treasure seeking, the peepstone, and all the rest. But instead of then coming to the rational and logical conclusion, he finds a way, any way, to somehow tie all of these things in to the notion that Joseph really was a true prophet. It's completely bogus.

[_truth dancer]

I've been enjoying a few of the "Mormon stories" Podcasts that have been put up on itunes. Yesterday I finished the 5 part interview with Richard Bushman. On the last interview they discuss the interactions between questioning Mormons or ex-mos and the faithful. What interested me was John Delin's comments about how all who have problems with the church are not raving sinners. Some are honest people with honest questions who were upset when they learned some of the harder truths. Bushman states that he would like to see a more open and straightforward dialogue between the Church and those that are questioning these things.

I don't know if that will ever occur as far as the Church taking the time to delve into these discussions with the dissaffected. But as for myself I have come around to seeing that those that leave the church aren't exactly laden with sin and refuseing to give up bad habits. Participating in a board like this has given me alot of great insights and caused me to think in new ways.

Hey Gaz,

Well, you rock! :-)

I agree that it would be nice for the church to actually discuss some of the issues with those who are discovering the inconsistencies.

My experience is that when I really started having questions, there was no one to whom I could discuss the problems. The only response is, read the Book of Mormon, pray, go to the temple, get a blessing, stop reading non-faith promoting stuff, and look at the good it does for your life. :-)

Then folks discover places like MAD and get inundated with nastiness and name calling.

There really is no one in the church with whom one can have an honest discussion.

Now, the problem is, in my opinion, there are really no good answers to some of the issues. :-( But the dishonesty, nastiness, and disingenuous apologetic nonsense doesn't help.


~dancer~

[_Chap]

I've been enjoying a few of the "Mormon stories" Podcasts that have been put up on itunes. Yesterday I finished the 5 part interview with Richard Bushman. On the last interview they discuss the interactions between questioning Mormons or ex-mos and the faithful. What interested me was John Delin's comments about how all who have problems with the church are not raving sinners. Some are honest people with honest questions who were upset when they learned some of the harder truths. Bushman states that he would like to see a more open and straightforward dialogue between the Church and those that are questioning these things.

I don't know if that will ever occur as far as the Church taking the time to delve into these discussions with the dissaffected. But as for myself I have come around to seeing that those that leave the church aren't exactly laden with sin and refuseing to give up bad habits. Participating in a board like this has given me alot of great insights and caused me to think in new ways.

Hey Gaz,

Well, you rock! :-)

I agree that it would be nice for the church to actually discuss some of the issues with those who are discovering the inconsistencies.

My experience is that when I really started having questions, there was no one to whom I could discuss the problems. The only response is, read the Book of Mormon, pray, go to the temple, get a blessing, stop reading non-faith promoting stuff, and look at the good it does for your life. :-)

Then folks discover places like MAD and get inundated with nastiness and name calling.

There really is no one in the church with whom one can have an honest discussion.

Now, the problem is, in my opinion, there are really no good answers to some of the issues. :-( But the dishonesty, nastiness, and disingenuous apologetic nonsense doesn't help.


~dancer~

Truth Dancer and Gazelam may draw some comfort from the fact that the leadership of the CoJCoLDS has clearly given prayerful consideration to the problem of how to deal with queries raised by doubting members.

Having no doubt received revelation on this point, they recently (If I recall correctly) wrote round to bishops telling them to order their flocks NOT to write GAs with questions involving difficulties with faith and doctrine. Good one!

[_Jason Bourne]

I would really recommend listening to the Bushman interviews, they are fantastic and they directly discuss the heavy issues that everyone here is so interested in.

Theres also one I am in the middle of now with the Todd Compton that is great. I really need to get his book. I hate that the only account I have of Josephs wives is "No man knows my history".

What makes the Bushman interview so good is that he is an active faithful member who is curently serving as a patriarch ! His answers are honest and faithful and he takes on the heavy issues.

I have listened to the Bushman interviews and they are great. I am pleased that you are concluding that people do actually have honest questions and concerns about Church things and that those questioning or even those who left are not typically laden with some sort of sin. There are many who were just as active and committed as you or me who were very distraught as things started coming apart.

I wish the Church could and would be more open and dialogue about these things. But perhaps the stron nature and position of the Church's claims makes this impossible for them.

[_Who Knows]

What makes the Bushman interview so good is that he is an active faithful member who is curently serving as a patriarch!

He's not serving as a patriarch anymore; he was disfellowshipped until further notice.

Wow ! When did this happen?

I don't think that's right. Shades - were you thinking of grant palmer?

[_Jason Bourne]

Gaz,

I've noticed you've backed off a bit as well. If you'd like to remain a TBM, you shouldn't be reading Bushman's and particularly Compton's books, though. I think a person of your character would have increasing difficulty in justifying the practices of those that were once my heros. It's an excruciatingly lonely road.

And yes, not everyone leaves to justify their weaknesses. I'm 45 years old. I have resigned. I have yet to take a drink of alcohol in this life. I am still committed to remaining faithful to my bride of 20+ years. I won't permit my daughter to date till she's 16. I remain honest in my business dealings. I still repent when I make mistake (not to God, but to those that I might offend). I will admit that my language has become saltier at times and I have started to drink Pepsi for the first time in 30 years. Yeah, some of us don't really fit the guy with horns mold.

I am now a "dry Mormon".

I drink Diet Coke!!! That must be why my testimony slipped!

[_Jason Bourne]

This is one major beef I have with Bushman's book. He knows all this history that is really the history of a guy pretending to be a prophet, who created a church, and who abused his position within that church to amass a private, secret harem of women who would sleep with him, etc. He knows about the treasure seeking, the peepstone, and all the rest. But instead of then coming to the rational and logical conclusion, he finds a way, any way, to somehow tie all of these things in to the notion that Joseph really was a true prophet. It's completely bogus.

Oh I see. Because he comes to a different conclusion than you it is bogus.

[_guy sajer]

Gaz,

I've noticed you've backed off a bit as well. If you'd like to remain a TBM, you shouldn't be reading Bushman's and particularly Compton's books, though. I think a person of your character would have increasing difficulty in justifying the practices of those that were once my heros. It's an excruciatingly lonely road.

And yes, not everyone leaves to justify their weaknesses. I'm 45 years old. I have resigned. I have yet to take a drink of alcohol in this life. I am still committed to remaining faithful to my bride of 20+ years. I won't permit my daughter to date till she's 16. I remain honest in my business dealings. I still repent when I make mistake (not to God, but to those that I might offend). I will admit that my language has become saltier at times and I have started to drink Pepsi for the first time in 30 years. Yeah, some of us don't really fit the guy with horns mold.

I am now a "dry Mormon".

I drink Diet Coke!!! That must be why my testimony slipped!

Have you tried Coke Zero? More like the real thing.

I love beer, but really only drink when I'm traveling (socially), in the Delta Crown Room (where I get all the booze I want for free), or in first class (where I also get all the booze I want for free--I would never pay for first class on domestic, but I get bumped up all the time). Much of the rest I can take or leave, but I can't stand distilled liquor straight.

[_Dr. Shades]

I don't think that's right. Shades - were you thinking of grant palmer?

Darn it! Yes, I was thinking of Grant Palmer, since (If I recall correctly) he, too, was interviewed by MormonStories.

I apologize for the misinformaion, Gazelam.