MYTH DISPELLED: LDS Apologists Are Paid

[_Trevor]

I think the Church realizes that this would create an unyielding self-aggrandizing theologian class which is why it's not going to happen. We have the nazis at Student Life to thank for this lesson..........

Reminds me of how Nibley used to call the Religion Department at BYU "the College of Cardinals."

[_Gadianton]

I'm afraid I will have to side with Mr. Scratch on this one. It's clear that apologists are paid. Now, while it is true that most apologists aren't paid, it's also true that most people who post on message boards aren't paid. The upper-ranking apologists are the ones lining their wallets with money and their shelves with free books.

Someone will surely rejoind with a, "but it's hardly anything!" Relative to what? To Crocket's salary or a GA's? This is true, but it would be quite something for someone starving in Africa. And most on point, it's on par with what people get paid for in publishing papers (or if subpar, up and coming), as Scratch has pointed out. It's a competitive industry, one where most people arenn't getting rich.

Don't read into anything I say here as criticism for the fact that they get paid. Why shouldn't they get paid? There is no good reason. But I think they feel the natural extension of the "no paid ministry" they beat other religions over the head with.

The Dude wrote,

DCP said he wouldn't loose any salary if he stopped writing as an apologist. If this is true, and it most likely is, then it cannot also be true that DCP is getting paid to be an apologist.

I most humbly disagree my friend. For instance, at my job, I signed an agreement that contains all kinds of stipulations and disclaimers, one of those is that my position can change at any time as the needs of the company change. For instance, if they need a hole dug and hand me a shovel, I'll be a paid dirt mover, even though my title might be something else, and even though it may very well also be true that after moving dirt for a while, and I tell them I'm not going to do it anymore, and go back to mixing concrete, that my salary not be diminished and that I retain my job.

[_rcrocket]

Someone will surely rejoind with a, "but it's hardly anything!" Relative to what? To Crocket's salary or a GA's?

I don't have a salary. I haven't needed a salary since 1990. I don't work for a salary.

I published twice for FARMS Review. I got nothing. I have published in academic journals. I didn't get a thing.

Academics who publish in journals almost never get "paid." They do it for the notoriety or sometimes altruistically. Sometimes there are prizes for writing competitions -- all of $500.

Dr. Peterson draws a salary. He has only to perform his tasks competently. As I have pointed out in the past, and I recall Sajer agreeing with me, if Dr. Peterson chose to publish regularly in Train Hobbyists' Journal, or even edit it, that fact would have no effect on his employment status.

Scratch must be an hourly employee. It would indeed be considered shifty conduct by engaging in hobby work on the clock if one is hourly.

FARMS Review is nothing more than a hobbyist's journal where academics and those who can write well may publish scholarly works.

[_Trevor]

FARMS Review is nothing more than a hobbyist's journal where academics and those who can write well may publish scholarly works.

Word.

[_Dr. Shades]

I think the Church realizes that this would create an unyielding self-aggrandizing theologian class which is why it's not going to happen. We have the nazis at Student Life to thank for this lesson..........

??? Will you please explain what the Hell you mean by that last sentence? I'm totally confused.

[_Gadianton]

I haven't needed a salary since 1990.

And I admire that.

---

Now for all the apologists who are confused, here's a helpful exercise:

If John works at a taco shop 20 hours a week for 3.50 cents an hour. He is
a) paid
b) unpaid

An apologist who is given $50 from a private donar for writing a paper is:
a) paid
b) unpaid

A general authority who draws 85k a year from the church, even though he could make 250k a year in his profession is:

a) paid
b) unpaid

[_Jersey Girl]

If John works at a taco shop 20 hours a week for 3.50 cents an hour. He is
a) paid
b) unpaid

c) an illegal alien


Sorry, it's late.
;-)

[_beastie]

Scratch must be an hourly employee. It would indeed be considered shifty conduct by engaging in hobby work on the clock if one is hourly.

Oh, baloney. I'm on salary, as is my boyfriend. Yes, competence is required, but our employers would hardly condone either of us engaging in personal hobbies during company time, no matter how competently we perform.

[_Gadianton]

That is true, Beastie. If Sajer agreed that employers don't care if salaried "jack it" on the clock, because they only have to complete their tasks, then I think both Sajer and Crocket need to revist the world the rest of us live in. (that both of you are independently wealthy through hardwork and have transcended that world, believe me, I respect) If what Sajer meant is that it's ok for a professor to write for a hobby magazine on the side, then that's fine. If what he meant in addition is that his employer would overlook it if done on the clock using company equipment, then that's fine, it's probably true. But because he's salaried? No.

Let me illustrate the algorithm employers use when they hire employees:

a) Can I hire him as a contractor? If I can, then I can deduct as an expense and don't have to pay benefits! Let's try and do it this way first; but let's be carefull because the IRS has some strict guidelines here that might get us into trouble so if this doesn't work out,

b) Ok, If I have to pay benefits, can I put him on salary? Because, I have a feeling the amount of work we have to do around here exceeds 40 hours a week and my God, we'd hate to pay him for all his time. Since I'd bet that he isn't superman and can't do all these tasks in 40 hours, let's exaggerate his title a little bit and make him a salaried employee! But we need to be careful, because we're in California and more and more frequently disgruntled employees are winning lawsuits against their employers who attempt to underpay them by making them salaried.

c) Benefits, taxes, AND we have to pay by the hour including time and a half and double time? Nooooo!

When the above is properly understood then there are only a couple of options.

1) Dr. Peterson is so competent or holds so much intangible value for the company that while they would much rather see him using company equipment, computers, his office, and his brainpower for tasks that benefit the company, they'll turn a blind eye to it. In which case, technically, he's screwing over his employer based on their expectations.

2) Given the vast amounts of time he's spent on message boards alone, on company time, and in full view of his employers with no doubt many idiots who I'm sure have taken things too far over the years and attempt to get him in trouble with BYU and fail, we might as well surmise his employer is happy with his behavior and encourages the use of company property time (in the sense of opportunity cost) and other resources for apologetics, and that off the books he's at least part time, a paid apologist.

[_Daniel Peterson]

For what it's worth, I've never declared that I've never received any money whatsoever for any activity related to apologetics. (That is a typical Scratchian straw man.) But the amount of money that I've received for apologetic writing or speaking over the course of my entire lifetime, I'm guessing, probably totals less than 1% of my current annual salary -- and no part of it was paid as salary. My salary would not be lower had I never written an apologetic sentence; arguably, in fact, given the incentives and rewards factored into salary determinations at BYU, it might actually have been somewhat higher. I was warned when I first arrived at BYU not to write on Mormon topics, and I've since been criticized occasionally for doing so. That I've done so and managed nonetheless to thrive was by no means assured; others have not.

And I'm not attempting, contrary to Scratch's unsupported allegations, to make apologetics lucrative. (It will never be that.) I simply think that a person who edits a book or writes a book should not be obligated to do it absolutely for free, simply because he or she is doing it for FARMS. (My concerns center on the long-term health and interests of FARMS as much as on those of the writers, incidentally.) And the amounts of money involved are, in any case, minimal.

the vast amounts of time he's spent on message boards alone

Averaging five posts a day on the board formerly known as FAIR, with a small and very occasional burst of posting here, and none (or virtually none) anywhere else? "Vast"? (I write quickly, by the way.)

By my calculation, you yourself have averaged approximately 2.5 posts daily here. That appears to make your posting on this board, by your own standard, half-vast.

Have I wasted more time than I should have on largely fruitless internet squabbles? Absolutely. And I hope to reform. But it has come out of my own personal research and writing time. My classes have been taught, my students' papers read, my Middle Eastern Texts Initiative books vetted, edited, and published, my administrative responsibilities attended to. (I've won teaching awards, for what it's worth, and shown up in at least one nationally published book that I'm aware of as one of BYU's top teachers -- which I don't take particularly seriously, but which does appear to demonstrate that I'm doing my job. And I wasn't named a lifetime member and fellow of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts, and Letters last year -- the only person so named in 2007 -- for my apologetics, let alone for my posting on a message board. Which, again, I take with a grain of salt [and I realize full well that it's not the National Academy of Sciences or the Académie française], but which, I think, suggests that I've actually been doing some non-apologetic academic work.)

on company time

What do you think would constitute "company time" for an academic? Between 9-5, say, on Mondays through Fridays?

Does this mean that when, as I commonly do, I'm participating in academic conferences or delivering public lectures in the evenings and on weekends, I'm working overtime? Am I working overtime when, as I typically do, I'm editing and writing on weekends and on holidays (e.g., today)? When I travel, as I often do, on university and translation project business -- throughout North America, Europe, and the Near East -- am I racking up hours and hours of overtime?

in full view of his employers

Do you seriously imagine that anybody in the administration of the Church or the University pays even the slightest attention to the goings-on here or on the board formerly known as FAIR?