An evening with Dr. Gee

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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: An evening with Dr. Gee

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Shades,

Thanks for the very thorough notes. It sounds from your report like this presentation was actually quite a bit better than Gee's recent FR publication, which accords well with my experience of the difference between his spoken and written personalities. A few quick comments:

Dr. Shades wrote:[*]Continuing with the above, he described how Egypt was conquered shortly after this and was thereafter ruled by foreign dynasties, so when Abraham returned through Caanan there were no Egyptians left--at least none in power is what I think his gist was. That's the reason Abraham was able to receive the promise from God that he'd inherit the land; there was a power vacuum (my words, not Gee's).


It sounds like Gee is dating Abraham's return to Canaan to sometime after 1648 BC, when the Hyksos conquered Egypt. (The Hyksos were Canaanites who ruled Egypt for about a hundred years.) This is a bit later, I think, than the traditional dating.

Gee discussed why Abraham would've come into such conflict with the Egyptians. The Code of Hammurabi (as an example) proscribes death as the penalty for switching religions,


Hammurabi was a Babylonian king. I thought Gee placed Ur under Egyptian dominion in Syria? Curious that an Egyptologist is citing evidence from Babylon in order to show that Egyptians practiced religious persecution.

QuESTION: "Why do Egyptologists the world over say that Facsimile #1 is something other than what Joseph Smith said it is?" ANSWER: "The first question to ask them is, 'How do you know that it says something other than what Joseph Smith said it is?'" Gee then went on to describe how non-Mormon Egyptologists will accept any explanation other than the church's explanation.


Somehow I doubt that the Egyptological world revolves around the Book of Abraham to such an extent that Egyptologists tailor their work on lion-couch vignettes specifically to refute Mormonism. This accusation seems just a little narcissistic.

Someone asked who did the woodcuts. Gee said it was (Reuben?) Hedlock. This person asked about Hedlock, and Gee said that after Nauvoo Hedlock was a mission president in Europe, then a bishop, then was later excommunicated for absconding with tithing funds.


This is a very Mormon assessment of the Hedlock scandal. For a different take, click here.

Another person, a rather young guy, asked: "When are the KEP going to be published?" Dr. Gee responded that you'll have to ask "the KEP people" (i.e., the people working on it--Brian Hauglid among them, I'm 99.9% sure, although he didn't specify). He said it was a slow process since Joseph left behind 30 volumes worth of KEP material. I MAY EASILY BE MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS POINT; perhaps he merely meant that the final analysis would take up 30 volumes. He said that at the rate of two volumes a year--I'm sure that was only his estimate on what it would take, not some sort of set reliable timetable for the future--it would be slow going.


He's referring to the Joseph Smith Papers project, of which the KEP critical edition will be a part. (Don Bradley pointed out to me the other night that including the KEP in the Joseph Smith Papers is as good as a tacit admission that the "scribes did it" theory is a load of crap. I found that amusing.)

Dr. Gee said that the term "Book of Breathings" is a phrase only used by anti-Mormon Egyptologists. He then listed some names that would be more accurate, but I can't remember them accurately enough to do them justice.


I presume "Breathing Permit" and "Document of Fellowship" would be his suggested alternatives. As far as I know, though, Gee and his Mormon devotees are the only ones presently using the latter.

All in all, a fairly interesting presentation. Thanks again, Shades.

-Chris
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

He didn't give a name

As expected. It is always a mystery, these objective non-LDS scholars who supposedly confirm LDS apologetics. Why is he afraid to give out the name? Because he knows someone like me will email the guy and find out the truth.
Dr. Gee responded that you'll have to ask "the KEP people" (i.e., the people working on it--Brian Hauglid among them, I'm 99.9% sure, although he didn't specify). He said it was a slow process since Joseph left behind 30 volumes worth of KEP material. I MAY EASILY BE MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS POINT; perhaps he merely meant that the final analysis would take up 30 volumes.

Oh, don't underestimate today's apologists. They could easily produce 30 volumes of analysis on a single page. Anythingt to make controversial issues appear more complex than they really are. But why won't they just publish the documents? WHy teh special protection of the KEP?

Because they don't want people thinking for themselves and doing their own analysis. This is why Hauglid presented only a fraction of the KEP in his presentation. He is only interested in showing portions that he thinks support his argument. The rest cannot be shown because the assumption is that you're too stupid to understand what they really mean. You need people like Gee and Hauglid to tell you what they mean.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Please keep digging your own graves in the manner you are continuing to do here. I'll be there with the front loader to tuck you in when the time comes.

The fall, when it comes, is going to be long and hard.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Great stuff Shades. Thanks for going and taking all these notes. Much appreciated. I will have to check out his book.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Does anyone else think John Gee resembles Ross Perot?

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Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Droopy wrote:Please keep digging your own graves in the manner you are continuing to do here. I'll be there with the front loader to tuck you in when the time comes.

The fall, when it comes, is going to be long and hard.



LOL! Why Are you stating that? Is it because you believe that one of the LDS Apologists is going to be able to find the "missing papyrus" from the Book of Abraham? Where is the "missing papyrus" from the Book of Abraham located at now??? I want to be able to see it.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_christopher
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Post by _christopher »

Dr. Shades wrote:He came right out and stated that the text of the Book of Abraham was located on a "long roll" that was destroyed in the Chicago Fire, therefore (by implication) the recovered papyrii wouldn't have any verifiable connection to it.


Someone please help me out here because this is where I get lost.

How can the apologist say the papyri we have now have no connection with the Book of Abraham, when we go look at the Alphabet and Grammer (or KEP whatever they want to call it now) and have the figures from a sheet we do have right in order in the margin. Even if you want to get wild and say they were added by Cowdery or some other scribe after the text was written, they are still there and match right up to papyrii that we do have...

What am I missing?

Chris <><

PS: This of course doesn't even get into the facsimile that is also there which we have.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

This whole lecture by Gee is a very good example of something that humans as a species do very well - problem solving. There's a problem, and there are intelligent people willing to put in the time and effort to find a solution for it, and things like this lecture are the result. It's just enough plausible-sounding handwaving exercises, innuendo, and well-poisoning to give believing Mormons something they can point to when confronting the unpleasant facts surrounding the Book of Abraham, and wave it all off as some anti-Mormon biased conspiracy to defeat God's truth.

In that respect, this lecture represents a bullseye. Mission Accomplished.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

This is a question for Kevin, Who Knows, CK, and anyone else who has studied Book of Abraham as a hobby. Have any of you guys heard of this theory about the "large scroll" and it being burned in a Chicago fire? This is the first I have heard about it, but I haven't really studied this subject at any depth.
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

liz3564 wrote:This is a question for Kevin, Who Knows, CK, and anyone else who has studied Book of Abraham as a hobby. Have any of you guys heard of this theory about the "large scroll" and it being burned in a Chicago fire? This is the first I have heard about it, but I haven't really studied this subject at any depth.


No. It's been around for a long time. I remember posting on LDS Talk around '01-'02, having discussions about the Book of Abraham, and the member-apologists tossing this one out there. It's akin to "Moroni took the Gold Plates" back since no chain of custody* has ever been established as far as I know. In other words, this supposed scroll existed, this supposed scroll contained the Book of Abraham's text, and this supposed scroll was destroyed completely.

Perfect.

I would love to know, exactly, who had this supposed scroll, who transferred it to who, step-by-step, until one could demonstrate that it was residing at 'x' place when the fire burned it into unrecoverable ashes.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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