Are children molested as 'a trial' to endure?

[_Jason Bourne]

Nothing is to be learned. It is a result of another person's evil actions.

Certainly you know this and really it seem ridiculous to go down this path. Clearly it is an opportunity to mock and ridicule.

What is to be learned is that revelation doesn't exist in the Mormon Church where it comes to callings, or to anything else.

See I have never been taught that every call is from revelation. Nor have I ever been taught that even if it was revealed that there is a promise that the person is going to do what you want or expect. I think Mormons teach that people have agency and even the mighty can sin and fall.

Topics like this are really just a dirty rotten attempt to beat the church with a specious made up club.

[_Jason Bourne]

This is a terrible story. I know that such things will affect you for the rest of your life. I hope that you have good counseling. I hope your tormentor paid for his deed.

Was this priesthood-holding molester somebody you encountered at church, or was he a family or friend who just happened to also be member?

Evil exists in the world for reasons God thinks important. This didn't happen to you to teach you a lesson although there are probably lessons learned the hard way. The innocent suffer.

That was a nice post Bob. Thanks

[_guy sajer]

Nothing is to be learned. It is a result of another person's evil actions.

Certainly you know this and really it seem ridiculous to go down this path. Clearly it is an opportunity to mock and ridicule.

What is to be learned is that revelation doesn't exist in the Mormon Church where it comes to callings, or to anything else.

See I have never been taught that every call is from revelation. Nor have I ever been taught that even if it was revealed that there is a promise that the person is going to do what you want or expect. I think Mormons teach that people have agency and even the mighty can sin and fall.

Topics like this are really just a dirty rotten attempt to beat the church with a specious made up club.

Jason, I have been told that callings are based on revelation. I have been told that a calling should be treated as if it came directly from God.

I suspect, also, that many others have shared my experience.

If a calling IS revealed, and God CAN see what's in the hearts of man/woman and reasonably predict their actions, or have reason to suspect them, why then would God call a pedophile or sex abuser to a position in which they have opportunity to hurt others?

This is not a "dirty rotten attempt to beat the church with a specious made up club," but a quite reasonable line of inquiry for a religion whose very premise for existing and operating is based on assumption that it and it alone receives true revelation from God and that it is led by chosen and inspired men who receive their guidance from on high.

With all due respect, Jason, you are dismissing my experience and that of many others who have been told precisely what you deny we have been told, and more, told this repeatedly. I would go as far as to argue that this is precisely what the Church teaches, and the message that the Brethren want communicated.

I think that it is you, not us, who is out of touch.

[_Some Schmo]

Nothing is to be learned. It is a result of another person's evil actions.

Certainly you know this and really it seem ridiculous to go down this path. Clearly it is an opportunity to mock and ridicule.

What is to be learned is that revelation doesn't exist in the Mormon Church where it comes to callings, or to anything else.

See I have never been taught that every call is from revelation. Nor have I ever been taught that even if it was revealed that there is a promise that the person is going to do what you want or expect. I think Mormons teach that people have agency and even the mighty can sin and fall.

Topics like this are really just a dirty rotten attempt to beat the church with a specious made up club.

Jason, I have been told that callings are based on revelation. I have been told that a calling should be treated as if it came directly from God.

I suspect, also, that many others have shared my experience.

If a calling IS revealed, and God CAN see what's in the hearts of man/woman and reasonably predict their actions, or have reason to suspect them, why then would God call a pedophile or sex abuser to a position in which they have opportunity to hurt others?

This is not a "dirty rotten attempt to beat the church with a specious made up club," but a quite reasonable line of inquiry for a religion whose very premise for existing and operating is based on assumption that it and it alone receives true revelation from God and that it is led by chosen and inspired men who receive their guidance from on high.

With all due respect, Jason, you are dismissing my experience and that of many others who have been told precisely what you deny we have been told, and more, told this repeatedly. I would go as far as to argue that this is precisely what the Church teaches, and the message that the Brethren want communicated.

I think that it is you, not us, who is out of touch.

I was certainly taught the same thing, and it's one of my primary criticisms of the church given the damage it does to people's lives. Ongoing revelation and discernment is one of the cornerstones and distinguishing characteristics of the church. That Jason would deny this is appalling.

Jason, if you find this so offensive, you may want to examine why it really hurts you, rather than simply assuming evil intent on the author of the OP. Could it be a case of "the truth hurts?"

The fact is, he makes a valid point that could be applied to all kinds of resultant hurt on the part of members, molestation of children being only one (and clearly, one of the worst ones). What about bad marital advice? Teachers imparting inaccurate information? People assuming extra responsibilities when their time is already overtaxed? The list goes on and on.

[_Loquacious Lurker]

I hope that you have good counseling.

Thank you for your kind words.

No, I have never been through counseling. I wonder if maybe I should -- I'm a happy and peaceful person, but I am afraid of men that I don't know well, and I'd like to be rid of that. I don't know any differently; I can't remember what it was like to not be afraid of strangers.

I never told anyone. It's a hard thing to tell, except online.

I hope your tormentor paid for his deed.

I don't know if he did. Maybe he confessed to his bishop and went through the repentance process. Maybe he didn't.

Was this priesthood-holding molester somebody you encountered at church, or was he a family or friend who just happened to also be member?

He babysat me when my aunt and uncle and parents went to the ballet in Salt Lake City at Christmastime. He was an Eagle Scout and a strong member of the church. Everyone fussed over him and said how wonderful he was -- captain of the football team at school, and everything. No one guessed what he was like really.

Evil exists in the world for reasons God thinks important.

I just don't understand that. I'm sorry. I don't understand God. I am only a human, and I would not knowingly leave my child alone with a pedophile. Why does God do such things? Why does he look the other way when horrors are committed?

It's easier for me to believe that there is no God at all, than to believe he would knowingly watch and do nothing. Could YOU watch and do nothing while a child was being harmed? Anything that can sit idly by and do nothing while children are tortured or raped or killed is not worthy of worship.

This didn't happen to you to teach you a lesson although there are probably lessons learned the hard way. The innocent suffer.

Yes.

Again, thanks.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, I have been told that callings are based on revelation. I have been told that a calling should be treated as if it came directly from God.

I suspect, also, that many others have shared my experience.

Ok

I will grant you that it has been taught that God inspires callings. But I think it is more a cultural thing than doctrinal. So what? Does that rob a person of their agency? By the way personally I always have felt that this idea that God is involved in the details of callings is rather quaint, colloquial and goofy even. I never have liked it. More often it is who does it make sense to call and who could do a good job.

If a calling IS revealed, and God CAN see what's in the hearts of man/woman and reasonably predict their actions, or have reason to suspect them, why then would God call a pedophile or sex abuser to a position in which they have opportunity to hurt others?

There are a number of possibilities. First is moral agency. Next, I am not sure it is doctrinal in the LDS Church to say God knows every little dirty act we wil do before we do it. There is a range of opinions on this off course. I personally do not believe in simple and perfect omniscience.

With all due respect, Jason, you are dismissing my experience and that of many others who have been told precisely what you deny we have been told, and more, told this repeatedly. I would go as far as to argue that this is precisely what the Church teaches, and the message that the Brethren want communicated.

Can you tie this teaching to quotes from LDS leadership?

[_Jason Bourne]

I was certainly taught the same thing, and it's one of my primary criticisms of the church given the damage it does to people's lives. Ongoing revelation and discernment is one of the cornerstones and distinguishing characteristics of the church. That Jason would deny this is appalling.

Let me clarify. I do not think it is a teaching that evey single call is direct revelation from God. Certianly the idea that God can inpsire and even reveal things even to a bishop is taught. But as noted, the idea that every single call is the voice and will of God is a cultural thing more than a hard and fast rule.

Jason, if you find this so offensive, you may want to examine why it really hurts you, rather than simply assuming evil intent on the author of the OP. Could it be a case of "the truth hurts?"

This does not hurt me at all.

The fact is, he makes a valid point that could be applied to all kinds of resultant hurt on the part of members, molestation of children being only one (and clearly, one of the worst ones). What about bad marital advice? Teachers imparting inaccurate information? People assuming extra responsibilities when their time is already overtaxed? The list goes on and on.

Life is tough man. I think Harmony is correct. God is not a superman nor were we ever promised a rose garden. The LDS Church is not perfect. Nothing is. Organization expect time and effort from their members. I know the LDS Church makes it hard to say no. I would like to see that changed. Personally in my little area of operation I have changed that. But hey, even professionals give bad advice quite often. WHy single out the LDS Church on this one?

[_Some Schmo]

I just don't understand that. I'm sorry. I don't understand God. I am only a human, and I would not knowingly leave my child alone with a pedophile. Why does God do such things? Why does he look the other way when horrors are committed?

It's easier for me to believe that there is no God at all, than to believe he would knowingly watch and do nothing. Could YOU watch and do nothing while a child was being harmed? Anything that can sit idly by and do nothing while children are tortured or raped or killed is not worthy of worship.

The other alternative is that there is a god, but he's a capricious dick who couldn't care less about human suffering.

Another alternative is that he's indifferent. He made us and then completely forgot he did it.

So yeah, it's much easier to believe there's no god. It makes far more sense. And I agree that if there is a god, he deserves no respect, let alone worship. Thinking he does is simply bonkers, given the way of the world. Talk about selective perception. I don't believe in god partly because if he does exist, he doesn't even deserve simple acknowledgement.

[_rcrocket]

thanks.

If you are still a minor you should go to your parents immediately with this information.

Also, there are long statutes of limitations for these offenses if you are under 25; consider going to law enforcement. They will not disbelieve you; (nor will they necessarily believe you) they will take steps to investigate. I have been through this process many times and I see how it works to smoke 'em out.

[Alf'Omega]

I was certainly taught the same thing, and it's one of my primary criticisms of the church given the damage it does to people's lives. Ongoing revelation and discernment is one of the cornerstones and distinguishing characteristics of the church. That Jason would deny this is appalling.

Let me clarify. I do not think it is a teaching that evey single call is direct revelation from God. Certianly the idea that God can inpsire and even reveal things even to a bishop is taught. But as noted, the idea that every single call is the voice and will of God is a cultural thing more than a hard and fast rule.

Fair enough, but given that it can be difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between the culture and the gospel, I think it's fair to say that it exists as an implicit belief on the part of most members.

EDIT: One of the most oft used questions heard in the church is "Have you prayed about it?" Apparently, the holy spirit is there for "promptings." Why would people bother to pray about their decisions if they didn't expect resultant inspiration? I mean, it's so obvious that it's a common belief that the LDS god has his hand in all things.

Jason, if you find this so offensive, you may want to examine why it really hurts you, rather than simply assuming evil intent on the author of the OP. Could it be a case of "the truth hurts?"

This does not hurt me at all.

Well, 'hurt' may not be the exact word, but clearly, this thread pissed you off. All I'm referring to is your negative reaction to it.

The fact is, he makes a valid point that could be applied to all kinds of resultant hurt on the part of members, molestation of children being only one (and clearly, one of the worst ones). What about bad marital advice? Teachers imparting inaccurate information? People assuming extra responsibilities when their time is already overtaxed? The list goes on and on.

Life is tough man. I think Harmony is correct. God is not a superman nor were we ever promised a rose garden. The LDS Church is not perfect. Nothing is. Organization expect time and effort from their members. I know the LDS Church makes it hard to say no. I would like to see that changed. Personally in my little area of operation I have changed that. But hey, even professionals give bad advice quite often. WHy single out the LDS Church on this one?

Because professionals don't normally play the "divine inspiration" card. And let's face it; people tend to be more vulnerable (mentally, emotionally) in church related activities than they are during business transactions.

Life is tough enough without non-professionals acting like professionals under the guise of "revelation."