Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

The Dude wrote:Wow. Orson Scott Card's next book could be "Sympathy for the Taliban". DCP could write a nice forward.

I suppose that you're trying to suggest now that I'm some sort of anti-Western fascist?

Funny.

And here I thought I tended libertarian.

But what do I know? (I guess I need to do more research in Scartch's "dossiers" so that I can be better informed about my opinions.)

I suppose you're under the impression that, while the Taliban rejected gay marriage (a much discussed issue in Afghanistan since the 1980s), they insisted that homosexuals should enjoy basic human rights?

You may be correct. Has Scartch compiled a "dossier" on my friend and ally Mullah Omar?
_Trevor
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Trevor »

The Dude wrote:So Card thinks Congress aims to change nature? To decree grey is green? To declare blind = sighted? To enforce the new rule that 1+1 = 3? What a loony. Completely unhinged.


If he hadn't already lost me before, he surely would have lost me there.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Gazelam
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Gazelam »

antishock8 wrote:It's astounding to me that people can be so overtly bigoted, from the person making the remark to the people echoing it. Replace "gay" with "black" or "Muslim" or "Republican", and I think people would be whistling a different tune. Absolutely disgusting.


Pay attention jackass.

Black = race

Republican, Gay, and Muslim = choices.

learn the difference so you can discuss the topic intelligently.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Bond...James Bond
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Gazelam wrote:
antishock8 wrote:It's astounding to me that people can be so overtly bigoted, from the person making the remark to the people echoing it. Replace "gay" with "black" or "Muslim" or "Republican", and I think people would be whistling a different tune. Absolutely disgusting.


Pay attention jackass.

Black = race

Republican, Gay, and Muslim = choices.

learn the difference so you can discuss the topic intelligently.


Political views are more of a choice, but alot of people grow up to hold the same values of their parents, particularly if they're politics are driven by "religious morals", in that case see below.

Religion is barely barely a choice for society. The vast majority are born into their religion and indoctrinated from childhood. They don't have a chance.

Homosexuality is a choice? I'm sure alot of ostacized gays which it were so, but can't switch back, because, well it's their instinct to like people of the same sex.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_The Dude
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _The Dude »

Gaz: the difference you think you've identified doesn't change Antishock8's point about bigotry. Telling Muslims or Republicans they are blocked from certain legal benefits because of their political/religious "choice" is still bigotry, isn't it?

(And I'm not sure Muslim and Replublican is always a choice. For Muslim it may depend on where you live. For Republican it may depend on how old you are.)
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Ray A

Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:
Black = race


Does that include Michael Jackson?
_Gazelam
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Gazelam »

Ray A wrote:
Gazelam wrote:
Black = race


Does that include Michael Jackson?


Only until the "Off the Wall" album came out. After that it gets questionable.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_EAllusion
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _EAllusion »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
And here I thought I tended libertarian.

But what do I know? (I guess I need to do more research in Scartch's "dossiers" so that I can be better informed about my opinions.)

I suppose you're under the impression that, while the Taliban rejected gay marriage (a much discussed issue in Afghanistan since the 1980s), they insisted that homosexuals should enjoy basic human rights?


You're also a fan of Ann Coulter, who most libertarians in my experience would view as monstrous. I do and I'm a libertarian. Simply saying "I'm a libertarian" doesn't always clear things up. The genuinely Taliban-esque Gary North is a self-described libertarian who holds influence among the "Lew Rockwell" libertarian crowd. He favors the death penalty for gays. There's lots of rather un-libertarian conservatives who call themselves libertarian for various reasons. Libertarians as a group tend to be socially liberal on gay rights. Yet, I think I would be mistaken to assume that's your view. While I think it is quite unlikely, and therefore a little ridiculous, to imply you are pro-Taliban when it comes to the gays, saying you tend libertarian is just not enough information in of itself.

All that said, I would think disallowing homosexuals from marrying each other for no good reason constitutes a violation of basic human rights. But if that doesn't float your boat, he also favors anti-sodomy laws. The main thing Card has on the Taliban is that he doesn't favor the death penalty for homosexual behavior, just lesser penalties.

So no, he does not favor basic human rights for homosexuals unless you carefully define "basic human rights" in a way that doesn't include rights Card does not think homosexuals should have. And if you do that, you can to the same when talking about the Taliban. They offered homosexuals basic human rights too. Only not.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

EAllusion wrote:Simply saying "I'm a libertarian" doesn't always clear things up.

Do you seriously believe that it's possible to be a libertarian fascist?

I don't.

EAllusion wrote:The main thing Card has on the Taliban is that he doesn't favor the death penalty for homosexual behavior, just lesser penalties.

Otherwise, I take it, they're pretty much identical?
_EAllusion
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Re: Have you see these comments from Orson Scott Card?

Post by _EAllusion »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Do you seriously believe that it's possible to be a libertarian fascist?


No. I do think it is possible for a person with fascist beliefs to call themselves libertarian. I gave an example of a person who holds views extremely similar to that of the Taliban who not only calls himself a libertarian, but actually is a notable figure among the "paleolibertarians." Gary North. Look him up. He's not pro-Taliban, but his theocratic views are highly similar. (How he reasons that he is a libertarian is pretty interesting. It's worth reading up on for the laugh.) On a more personal level, I've noticed a few people around me whose beliefs can best be described as as convoluted mish-mash of pop religious right and neo-con views they likely got from our current political environment calling themselves libertarian despite their views on just about everything not related to taxes and business regulation traditionally being opposed by libertarians.

Otherwise, I take it, they're pretty much identical?


In terms of their favored legal treatment of homosexuality?
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