Scott Gordon finally gets it

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_Who Knows
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _Who Knows »

ScottLloyd wrote:Though he acknowledges it probably wouldn't help much in discussions with the person who is leaving the church, Gordon does make a valid -- and rather obvious -- point: Claiming that the church is hiding things that one found while reading church books is, well, a tad self-contradictory.


Though at first I felt like I had been deceived, I no longer feel that way. I just never really did any 'due diligence' (DD) on the church. When I finally did do it (when I was 32 years old), I learned a lot of stuff that I never knew before, which, for me, made the church unbelievable. In other words, when I got the full picture, I couldn't believe it any more.

So more than anything else, I'm upset with myself, for waiting for so long before I did my DD on the church. On the other hand, I probably wasn't equipped to do it till maybe my mid-twenties anyways. And I certainly wasn't capable of doing it when I was 8 years old...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Who Knows
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _Who Knows »

bcspace wrote:
I think apologists are left trying to pick up the pieces of the church's dishonesty.


What dishonesty?


How about the church's treatment of the Wentworth letter in the joseph smith manual?

The manual even includes Joseph Smith's reasoning for writing the letter, which I find priceless:

As Mr. Barstow has taken the proper steps to obtain correct information, all that I shall ask at his hands, is, that he publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation.


So what does the church go and do? They publish the wentworth letter ~almost~ in it's entirety (leaving out Joseph Smith's embarrasing claims regarding Book of Mormon people origins). cough...misrepresentation...cough.

lol.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_moksha
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _moksha »

antishock8 wrote:Q: What makes FAIR's Book of Mormon theory/theories any more legitimate than Mr. Meldrum's theory?

A: Nothing. Nada. Zippo. Zilch.


They do however have a bigger pulpit in which to shout down the opposition.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

antishock8 wrote:Q: What makes FAIR's Book of Mormon theory/theories any more legitimate than Mr. Meldrum's theory?

A: Nothing. Nada. Zippo. Zilch.



Had you read about either without dismissing both a priori I guess I would take your comment more seriously. Aren't you supposed to be over in the MMM book thread?
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Ray A wrote:I don't see any solution to questions like this, and this is a basis of many people leaving the Church, unless they ignore or put such questions on hold, and hope that one day some convincing evidence will arise. David Wright and other such scholars, in my opinion, have shown much more reasonable and believable explanations, but that puts the Book of Mormon squarely in the genre of pseudepigrapha, a position unacceptable for literal believers. A number of even Mormon archaeologists have been saying for a very long time that the Book of Mormon simply "doesn't fit", but their voices have been drowned out by apologetics, and here is Scott still talking about "several theories". Are Mormon archaeologists still digging away in Mesoamerica? Not even Sorenson is doing that. Now it's just a "wait and hope for a solution" stand, and endless theories, and that's not even considering serious anachronisms in the Book of Mormon.

Yet no one has shown what is wrong with Sorenson's or even Larry Poulson's proposed geography. It quite literally fits the text. These have been dismissed by critics (and sometimes accepted by members) without even trying to analyze them.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Yet no one has shown what is wrong with Sorenson's or even Larry Poulson's proposed geography. It quite literally fits the text. These have been dismissed by critics (and sometimes accepted by members) without even trying to analyze them.


That's if you haven't read, for a start, what archaeologists like Ray and Deanne Matheny have written, quite contrary to Sorenson. Apart from the archaeology question, analyses like David Wright's "Historical Criticism: A Necessary Element in the Search for Religious Truth".

I'll even link you to Kevin Christensen's Reply

One of Kevin's conclusions:

Perhaps the arguments of Korihor represent the real sore point. Wright has studied Alma 30 closely, and cannot be unaware that his arguments often demonstrate homogeneity with Korihor's. An attack on the Book of Mormon via selected Lamanite epithets provides a stance of moral superiority, whereas a frontal attack on the Alma's dismissal of Korihor might be tactically unwise. For example, Wright dismisses the notion of predictive prophesy: Korihor says "No man can know of anything which is to come" (Alma 30:13).

Wright dismisses the notion that gospel knowledge has been withheld because he sees no evidence of a pre-Christian gospel. He debunks Latter-day Saint scriptures, traditions, and teachings on the topic.

Korihor says "Ye cannot know of things which ye cannot see" (Alma 30:15) and attacks "traditions . . . which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so" (Alma 30:16).

Wright undermines the value of spiritual experiences, and asks us to consider them in light of "psychophysiological"69 factors: Korihor talks about how such things come from "the effect of a frenzied mind" (Alma 30:16).

Of course, Wright does not go so far as to preach the social Darwinism and moral nihilism of Korihor. He does see some value in the religious life, and that is all to the good. But still, this sort of thing should give him pause, and I hope that in his personal ponderings, he addresses these issues in some way.


Yeah, that's the crux of it. When you can't answer a biblical scholar, one who once had the ambition to be "another Hugh Nibley" to boot, bring Korihor into it. His learning doth blind him to the truth. Expertise in biblical scholarship doesn't count in this instance.

David Wright Speaks

First of all, scholarship is not some sort of sin, a "failing of the flesh," which an individual recognizes to be an error and which that individual considers to be a blemish to his or her personal integrity. Scholarship, rather, is a constructive activity and is one of the purest expressions of a person's character. Scholarship involves a failing of the flesh, paradoxically, only when one is not forthright with his or her conclusions, when one holds back evidence, when one dissembles about his or her views in the face of social--or ecclesiastical--pressure. To express one's views, especially when they fly in the face of tradition, in other words, is hardly a sin but rather a virtue. Because Church disciplinary proceedings treat scholarship as if it were sinful, and even employ along the way the polemical myth that sin is what is responsible for a scholar's unorthodox views, the proceedings are an attack on the individual's integrity.

Another objection I have is that these proceedings are a matter of killing the messenger for the message. In my articles I discussed evidence that suggests that some traditional understandings of Mormon history and scripture are in need of revision. The sorts of difficulties I discussed are real. Many scholars have recognized them. And many members of the Church have accepted nontraditional solutions to them similar to mine. The questions and evidence cannot be pushed out of view or made innocuous by disciplinary actions. It is necessary for these issues to be talked about openly and the discussion should go forth without threat of punishment. Punishment especially should be avoided when scholars, such as I, have tried to be constructive. I have had no desire whatsoever to injure our--my!--religious tradition and community. My only desire has been to be honest with regard to the evidence as I have seen it and suggest how this may be viewed positively within our tradition. I would urge you to reread my articles with an eye open to my positive assertions and solutions. You may not accept them, but a positive and constructive attitude is there.


And where is David Wright today? Drowned out by apologetics, excommunicated by the Church.
_beastie
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _beastie »

Yet no one has shown what is wrong with Sorenson's or even Larry Poulson's proposed geography. It quite literally fits the text. These have been dismissed by critics (and sometimes accepted by members) without even trying to analyze them.


How seriously have you studied ancient Mesoamerica?

Please visit my website for quite a bit of information about "what is wrong" with Sorenson's geography.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _Trevor »

Now this is truly a watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics. Like Kevin Graham, I have tried, for a very long time, to convey this message. I am glad that someone, or many someones, have finally been able to get themselves heard and believed on this one. Is it simply a coincidence that this realization is dawning in the wake of the Bushman seminar? I don't know.

Thanks to Kevin for posting this here. Otherwise, we might not know that the concerns and hurt feelings of not a few disillusioned Mormons were finally getting wider recognition and acknowledgment among apologists. I didn't expect them to agree. I only wanted them to deal with those feelings in a manner more in line with their avowed religious principles. This looks like the beginning of a real improvement.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:
Yet no one has shown what is wrong with Sorenson's or even Larry Poulson's proposed geography. It quite literally fits the text. These have been dismissed by critics (and sometimes accepted by members) without even trying to analyze them.


How seriously have you studied ancient Mesoamerica?

Please visit my website for quite a bit of information about "what is wrong" with Sorenson's geography.


I've spent a total of about 15 minutes at your website total. Anyone wanna provide one example of something that damns the entire theories of Sorenson and Poulson on the proposed geography? Just one specific thing.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Trevor
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Scott Gordon finally gets it

Post by _Trevor »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:I've spent a total of about 15 minutes at your website total. Anyone wanna provide one example of something that damns the entire theories of Sorenson and Poulson on the proposed geography? Just one specific thing.


Well, I thought that bit about Nephites living in an underwater dome at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico lacking all credibility. Does anyone even have to refute such nonsense?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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