Moroni's Visitation: Dream Or Reality?

[_ludwigm]

There is a hungarian saying:

Who tells his dream is a fool.
The bigger fool is who listen it.

[_gramps]

There is a hungarian saying:

Who tells his dream is a fool.
The bigger fool is who listen it.

LOL. I won't tell you what I dreamt last night then.

[_Dr. Shades]

LOL. I won't tell you what I dreamt last night then.

A few nights ago I dreamt--and I'm not kidding--that every ex- and anti-Mormon in the world got fed up with the LDS heirarchy and marched, en masse, against the Church Office Building.

[_Ray A]

However, I seem to recall that Joseph Smith was exhausted the next day because he didn't sleep?

From the official account it's difficult to tell whether this experience was a dream or waking state. If it was a waking state, the question remains of how all of this would have escaped other house/room occupants, especially if it went on all night.

The account itself also seems to indicate a dream state, but with some possible omissions or licence being taken. Considering how many times the First Vision was reworked, it's not out of the question:

29 In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness and imperfections; when, on the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

47 After this third visit, he again ascended into heaven as before, and I was again left to ponder on the strangeness of what I had just experienced; when almost immediately after the heavenly messenger had ascended from me for the third time, the cock crowed, and I found that day was approaching, so that our interviews must have occupied the whole of that night.
48 I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable. My father, who was laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told me to go home. I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything.
49 The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me, calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.
50 I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, and went to the place where the messenger had told me the plates were deposited; and owing to the distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place the instant that I arrived there.

It doesn't say whether this prayer and supplication was undertaken by kneeling beside his bed. I suppose one scenario is that he was praying while in bed then fell asleep and had the "vision" (dream).

In the last recounting, when he was in the field it appears he was "unconscious of anything", but whether "the first thing" he recollects is a dream or waking state seems moot.

From Mormon Think an apologetic explanation:

Perhaps the Moroni visit happened in a vision meant for Joseph only and therefore his brothers or anyone else in the house could not see or even hear it.

Personally, I can consider the visitation of Moroni during the night to be more of a vision than a meeting as we might understand it, physically speaking. Thus, the vision can be open to Joseph Smith but not to others in the room. This would be similar to the reception of D&C 76, which Joseph saw along with Sidney Rigdon. Philo Dibble was present in the room, along with others, and knew a vision was taking place, but apparently only Joseph and Sidney actually saw it. See Dibble's account recorded in The Juvenile Instructor, 15 May, 1892.

Critic response:

This is an interesting theory, let's examine this scenario. The first issue to address is how would this work exactly? Would Joseph still speak as normal but no one else could see the angel or would everything happen in Joseph's mind?

Well if Joseph's body was unaffected but no one else could see the angel then wouldn't his brothers be awoken at some point in the night by hearing Joseph's one-sided conversation - and of course then wonder who he was talking to or at the very least wonder who Joseph was staring at for six hours or so? In the vision referenced where Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon reportedly saw a vision but the others could not, you state that the others 'knew a vision was taking place'. If onlookers could tell a vision was happening but couldn't actually see it, then wouldn't at least one of Joseph's brothers have 'known' a vision was happening to Joseph during the visions that took up the whole of the night? The two brothers sleeping in Joseph's own bed would certainly have noticed something going on with their brother if what you say is correct that others ' knew a vision was taking place' even when they couldn't see it themselves.

Since this didn't happen then the 'vision' must have been entirely contained in Joseph's young mind. If this is the case, how is this really different than a dream or a hallucination? To the believers that say the Angel Moroni's visit was entirely in Joseph's mind and that is the reason none of his family could see the angel that night, we agree - it was in his mind as an intense dream, hallucination or inspired fantasy or what some call 'a vision'.

A somewhat similar account is found in Acts, when Paul had his vision, but those around him were also tangibly affected, though they didn't experience exactly what Paul did.

Paul's vision:

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?


7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

If Joseph did speak to Moroni, then one has to wonder how this didn't wake anyone in the room/house. And if the whole room was filled with light as described, "the room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person", a dream state seems to be a better explanation.

[_moksha]

A few nights ago I dreamt--and I'm not kidding--that every ex- and anti-Mormon in the world got fed up with the LDS heirarchy and marched, en masse, against the Church Office Building.

Were the Sugar Plum Fairies off supporting some Writer's strike?

[_ludwigm]

LOL. I won't tell you what I dreamt last night then.

A few nights ago I dreamt--and I'm not kidding--that every ex- and anti-Mormon in the world got fed up with the LDS heirarchy and marched, en masse, against the Church Office Building.

Do You want to create one new church, based on Your dream?
It would be a really true one, according to the increasing of the membership. (4-5 million in the very first minute)

[_gramps]

I would join in on that march, assuming it wasn't just a vision, but actual reality, whatever that is in Mormonspeak.

[_The Dude]

LOL. I won't tell you what I dreamt last night then.

A few nights ago I dreamt--and I'm not kidding--that every ex- and anti-Mormon in the world got fed up with the LDS heirarchy and marched, en masse, against the Church Office Building.

Then what happened?

[_The Nehor]

LOL. I won't tell you what I dreamt last night then.

A few nights ago I dreamt--and I'm not kidding--that every ex- and anti-Mormon in the world got fed up with the LDS heirarchy and marched, en masse, against the Church Office Building.

Danite Dream Scenario. All the opposition gathered in one kill zone.