Abusive Churches

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Harmony, I'm not sure how to take/understand your comments. Are you saying those things in celebration or lamentation of LDS practices??

Jason, thanks for the site, from which I've pasted the next section following yours. I will comment in this...

The coming evangelical collapseAn anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise...Hopefully??

... This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West. With good reason & purpose??

Within two generations, evangelicalism (Which realistically includes LDSism. What other Christian sect evangelizes more than Mormons?) will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. (LDSism being at the height of their success) But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good. As it honestly can be considered.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth.As distinct from Religion... But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

Why is this going to happen?

1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. LDSism being traditionally at the forefront... This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society. True. How long can these (facts?) escape self analysis by these anti-social groups??

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Materialism is not Christianism... Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. Mormons preach/evangelize more about Mormonism than about Jesus' message of restraint of materialistic aspirations; they do well at serving two masters... We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith Mormons & JW are the exception here... except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures. This is the point I made previously in this thread.

3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, While LDSism might not want to be identified with this group, by numbers and influence they most certainly are... dying churches, In NA LDSism is facing a retention challenge of educated members... and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.

4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself. LDS Church Ed programs are no exception...

5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done. Look for ministries to take on a less and less distinctively Christian face in order to survive. As indeed they should... The world doesn't require Christian Preachers it needs folks who live the Social Gospel by whatever name. That seems to be taught more by Secular educators than by Church educators...

6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children (Who will be better educated, nurtured outside of guilt & fear tactics...) a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible ...which will be seen as mythology recording ancient times and the thoughts of ancient peoples. It will be seen as something to appreciate, and not to defend as, "God's word." and the importance of the faith. Faith will take on new meaning. It won't be in fantasia and rituals to bless and/or punish. Faith will be in humanity to solve problems and to advance and improve the quality of all life... A better tomorrow by learning--and applying--true principles...

7. The money will dry up.

What will be left? "An olive leave...???"

The next section of that site looks equally interesting...
Roger
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[_Roger Morrison]

From Spong's latest newsletter re New Jersey signing Gay rights...(Edited by RM)

It was noted with both hurt and incredulity that in California's battle over Proposition 8, designed to overturn that state's Supreme Court ruling legalizing gay marriage, the Mormon Church across America sent money and personnel to support "family values" as expressed in that Proposition. Many commentators gave credit for the victory of Proposition 8 to this Mormon effort. As a direct consequence, Mormon churches across the nation were subsequently picketed by gay demonstrators. A picture was shown of a clever sign carried by a young picketer at the New York City Mormon Church. He was being raised by a lesbian couple and his sign read, "My two moms can beat your 14 wives." "Family values?" The irony was powerful. The irrationality of prejudice was exposed once again.

Another highlight of the evening was an award given to the Robbinsville High School gay-straight alliance for their courage and willingness to challenge publicly the anti-gay statements made by a member of their school board. This protest continued until these students had forced the resignation of the offending board member. This was but one more telling sign that the prejudices of yesterday will not bind the generations of tomorrow. A recent poll in the New York Times revealed that today 30% of evangelical Christians under 30 years of age no longer oppose equality for gay and lesbian people in all areas of life, including marriage. All of these are signs that the battle is over. Equality before the law for homosexual people is being established everywhere. New Jersey will act and marriage will be equal in the Garden State in the year 2009. It will then spread, as such movements always do, until it has encompassed South Carolina and Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas and even Alaska. As George Wallace learned in an earlier conflict when he cried "segregation forever," forever turns out to be a very short time when prejudices are dying. No one can finally hold back the tide of an idea whose time has come

This seems a confirmation of the thoughts expressed in 'Dying Evangelism' from the site Jason posted... Hard for me to accept the obstenacy of the Seniors in all, or most, sects to resist social change that will set free those oppressed by prejudice & discrimination served up by Religion. Better educated and conscienced young people will once again move humanity to new lands where non-others dared to go...
Ever thus...
Roger
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[_JAK]

There's no doubt the church (pretty much any church, given they all make crap up and hold people emotionally hostage to their claims to one degree or another) psychologically abuses their members. And it's sad and pathetic to see members become willing participants; they're little Stockholm syndrome subjects.

Religion has to be the greatest, most ingenious scam ever perpetrated on mankind. I'd like to feel sorry for the victims, but if they refuse to think (and really, all it takes is a little independent thought to realize just how foolish it all is), they only have themselves to blame.

At least there are some who don't take it all that seriously, pick and choose the stuff they buy into, and only do it for community, tradition, because they know it offers comfort even if it's bogus, etc. It's the ones that buy it all hook, line and sinker that are the interminable children/victims. Unfortunately, that's the majority of Mormons.

I quite agree with your analysis generally. However, I think the marketing of religion emerged from superstition and was codified by the political/religious alliance of the early emergence of religion. A few (likely smart individuals in their time) recognized the power of fear and intimidation. Since only a very few could read in the early development of language (early writing from our perspective), those few told the non-readers what symbols meant. And how could non-readers argue or challenge the better educated? They could not. As a result, the perpetuating on “mankind” capitalized on ignorance and on the vulnerability of those incapable of applying informed analysis.

The early “people emotionally hostage” didn’t really “refuse to think” (as you suggest), but they were unable to think. They lacked the intellectual tools to think. So, for them, it took more than “a little independent thought.” They were controlled by a power structure (both political and religious). When early genuine thinkers (Galileo for example) challenged that political/religious hierarchy, what happened to them? They were imprisoned. They were executed. That certainly would discourage others who might have been informationally enriched by the likes of earlier intellectuals.

The people who were early-on taken “hostage” likely had no idea that was happening to them. The process began long before religion(s) began to be formalized by a series of absolutes and absolute penalty for questioning or refusing to comply.

It’s difficult to get our own thinking around what hundreds and hundreds of years meant impeding the forward movement of intellectual thinking and intellectual challenge to dogma. The struggle was most difficult and a struggle against powerful opposition.

[_JAK]

Some Schmo,

I might just add that it is without question that some religious organizations are more “abusive” than others. The utilization of fear as a device/technique to intimidate people is relative. Some religious organizations use it more than others. Presently, we have a wide range of fear vs. happy-talk as motivational ploys to manipulate people from children to adults. The so dubbed “mega-churches” today tend to use happy-talk as a primary motivator. Those churches don’t generally use much use of the threat of hell to motivate.

At the same time, there are other religious groups (I am thinking of various Christian groups primarily) which use fear as a prime motivator. In the hierarchy of each group, the is a continuous debate/discussion regarding what works. And, as we should rightly expect, there is a difference of opinion. Perhaps the slowest growing or even shrinking groups are those groups which use neither as a primary motivating force. Not surprisingly, such soft-sell may have the least influence. Particularly that may be the case for the young who are exposed to a wide variety of views. The greatest threat is the exposure to genuine academic education at state funded universities which have no interest in propagandizing for any religious purpose.

[_Roger Morrison]

From JAK, which I'll edit:

The greatest threat (to irresponsible religious indoctrination) is the exposure to genuine academic education at state funded universities which have no interest in propagandizing for any religious purpose. (Therefore "genuine academic education" is the means to the truth that sets one free from fear, guilt, intimidation and manipulation the hallmarks of LDSism.)

Roger
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[_JAK]

From JAK, which I'll edit:

The greatest threat (to irresponsible religious indoctrination) is the exposure to genuine academic education at state funded universities which have no interest in propagandizing for any religious purpose. (Therefore "genuine academic education" is the means to the truth that sets one free from fear, guilt, intimidation and manipulation the hallmarks of LDSism.)

Roger
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Hi Roger,

This seems more like an addition than an edit resulting in a somewhat different statement.

The parenthetical “to irresponsible religious indoctrination” actually poses a question:

What is responsible “religious indoctrination”?

There could be responsible religious education – education. That is, a broad-based educational curriculum which is informational about major world religions such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. could be done with objectivity and responsibility. It would not be “religious indoctrination.”

How are “the hallmarks of LDSism” inherently different from the “hallmarks” of any other religious dogma? By inherently, I refer to the dogma of any religious bias which seeks to perpetuate a given religious disposition as superior to that of other religious dogmas.

By “genuine academic education,” I mean education free from partisan bias which perpetuates propaganda of a particular religious group. With regard to religion, such education could reference perspectives of religious mindsets. It could cite the various schisms which have been historically documented in the religious panorama (of Christianity) as they have been amended or revised to comply with an emerging notion of religious correctness. While the views expressed on this form are preoccupied with LDS, the fact is that LDS is but one of the many religious perspectives.

My comment is not in opposition to your accession, and I appreciate your viewpoint.

JAK

[_solomarineris]

For those who think the progressive style of the EV Church is a great thing read this:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Oneida, Ky. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

I've read this article before. The man is right on the money, he falls short of predictions. The impending doom of Christianity is already started.
The biggest culprit is the Internet, no doubt.
What I don't understand is; How long LDS Church will keep this "Growing Facade"? For their sake I hope they've already started seeing the "dire straits" of fruitless missionary work. Somehow I don't think the brass is sitting on their laurels & doing nothing.
But Church don't show any sign for change, if anything, they keep blazing unchecked (temple building is an example).

[_Roger Morrison]

The greatest threat (to irresponsible religious indoctrination) is the exposure to genuine academic education at state funded universities which have no interest in propagandizing for any religious purpose. (Therefore "genuine academic education" is the means to the truth that sets one free from fear, guilt, intimidation and manipulation the hallmarks of LDSism.)

Roger
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Hi Roger,

This seems more like an addition than an edit resulting in a somewhat different statement.

The parenthetical “to irresponsible religious indoctrination” actually poses a question:

What is responsible “religious indoctrination”?

There could be responsible religious education – education. That is, a broad-based educational curriculum which is informational about major world religions such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. could be done with objectivity and responsibility. It would not be “religious indoctrination.”

How are “the hallmarks of LDSism” inherently different from the “hallmarks” of any other religious dogma? By inherently, I refer to the dogma of any religious bias which seeks to perpetuate a given religious disposition as superior to that of other religious dogmas.

By “genuine academic education,” I mean education free from partisan bias which perpetuates propaganda of a particular religious group. With regard to religion, such education could reference perspectives of religious mindsets. It could cite the various schisms which have been historically documented in the religious panorama (of Christianity) as they have been amended or revised to comply with an emerging notion of religious correctness. While the views expressed on this form are preoccupied with LDS, the fact is that LDS is but one of the many religious perspectives.

My comment is not in opposition to your accession, and I appreciate your viewpoint.

JAK[/quote]

Hi JAK,

Sorry for the delay in my response. I've been off-line while visiting a daughter in LA. Very worth the sacrifice...

There, strolling Venice Beach, I encountered "Jews for Christ" and enjoyed enquiring conversations on, "...why?" Seems regretable that these educated young men were so "indoctrinated" by Judeo-Christianism that their exposure to education did not break the spell cast by their early nurturing...

True, my comment is more an add-on of clarity for my slowing mind. I didn't want there to be any mistaking what is at threat--religious indoctrination, different from a religious community that provides personal support to those with their, whatever needs--and the need for such indoctrinating groups be called to account for their misleading "indoctrinations" that win against intelligence and rationality; for the time being...

Evolution IS a very slow process. But truth will prevail. The Bible is an intriguing story of legendary characters. Their actions, thoughts, ventures, adventures and misadventures are eulogized to perpetuate the mythology of their being favoured and directed by their "God" of choice. Most tribes have such tales.

The Bible is to be read for what it is--described above. It is not to be taken as "...the word of God..." The words are man's about their God relationship. Nothing more, nothing less.

I too appreciate your views and comments.

Roger
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[_karl61]

The only good thing is that mercy can't rob justice and people in the Church will get to see this; may be then they will stop playing their mind games; stop throwing people overboard because they perceive them as a wicked when they are really just sick. They need to put a sign on the door of the LDS meeting houses saying that they are not a hospital for the sick: it's for the elite.

[_Roger Morrison]

Karl61 said:

...The only good thing is that mercy can't rob justice...

And that's a "truth"... Much to the chagrin of those who think otherwise, and then have to rationalize why God said "no" when they prayed for a "yes"...

That corruption of thought started when the guy faught for that bridge and credited Jesus for his win... Oh yeah, "right-makes-might." The right armament, strategy and luck etc...
Roger
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