A question never asked about the "First Vision"

[_why me]

Here is Joseph Smith's account:

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved gSon. Hear Him!

It seems clear cut to me that the two personages were from heaven.

[_Chap]

Here is Joseph Smith's account:

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved gSon. Hear Him!

It seems clear cut to me that the two personages were from heaven.

It seems fairly "clear-cut" that Joseph Smith wrote in a way that he knew would lead his readers to conclude that the vision that he reported was of personages "from heaven". We may perhaps go further and make the assumption that he actually did have an experience of this kind, and that he believed it was an experience of a visitation "from heaven".

The whole point of this thread however is the question, which you seem to ignore, of whether (on the assumptions made) there is any solid evidence that Joseph Smith's visitors really were "from heaven", and not from another place altogether. Why should he not have been deceived?

[_truth dancer]

Well, assuming Joseph Smith actually did see a few otherworldly visitors, here are a few questions I would have asked him:

How does he really know there is only one God? Just because a being said he is doesn't mean it is true? Maybe there are many God's all competing for glory and power? Maybe these Gods are trying to convince their earthly followers they are the only one? Maybe they are in some sort of competition to see who can get more followers?

Or, how do we know there are not otherworldly beings practicing to become Gods? Maybe the God of our Earth is not all that great but is trying to improve his Godly skills? (Hence all the confusion and messiness of our world). If God can talk to a few men, could not God say whatever he wants?

Could some otherworldly being lie? Might not an otherworldly being who could create our Earth not appear in any form "he" wanted? Or teach whatever he wanted? Just because Joseph Smith saw "God" as a man doesn't mean God really is a man... maybe he can appear however he wishes.

How could anyone know if the being who appeared to Joseph Smith was actually the real God? The most powerful God? The only God? A good God?

Inconceivable has often talked about the "Mormon God" as if there are many Gods, so who knows? Could it be that there is a group of beings, "Abraham" being channeled by Jerry and Esther Hicks? Maybe the Conversations with God are from another being? Maybe Edgar Cayce was getting information from another God? Maybe the FLDS are receiving revelation from yet another one?

How could we know?

If the Gods don't want to tell us, if they have some sort of game, competition, plan or development going on, and don't want us to know about it, well we are left in the dark.

I hold to the belief that anyone can make up anything that is not provable and claim it is from God.

~td~

[_Jason Bourne]

The following was posted to the Recovery Board by Richard Packham. You can read the thread here.

-----[BEGIN QUOTE]-----

Why did Joseph Smith (assuming that his report of the FV in the Pearl of Great Price is accurate) simply assume that the personages he saw were God and Christ?

They did NOT identify themselves! The one only identified the other as "my Beloved Son." Did he think that God is the only supernatural being that has a "beloved son"?

Did he apply any of the tests to identify a messenger from God? Did he offer to shake hands? (D&C 129:8) Did he check the color of his hair? (Teachings of the PJS p 214)

NO!
!

I thought this pretty lame.

1st of all many EV critics have said for ages that JSs vision may have been Satanic.

Second, many of these "tests" came later in Joseph's career.

[_Tiktaalik]

As Jason Bourne alludes to, the validity of the "tests" are dependant on believing the Joseph Smith was a prophet in the first place, so in that sense it seems to be somewhat of a circular objection to bring up.

In another, more important sense, there are good reasons for questioning Smith's interpretation of his own experience (assuming that we concede that he had some sort of out-of-the-ordinary experience). Are there good reasons for suspecting that his experience could have originated in his own mind? Not only are there good reasons for so thinking, but this explanation is entirely more feasible than the explanation that his experience was in fact a visitation from the anthropomorphic creator of the universe and his son.

A similar objection has often been raised with regard to the experience of "the spirit" which is so key to converting new members. Which is more likely, that we are reacting emotionally and psychologically to a message which sounds good and would be wonderful if true, or that an invisible anthropomorphic ghost is "revealing the truth of all things" to us?

Once we unquestioningly accept the church's interpretation of it, we have checked our critical thinking at the door and leave ourselves open to believing all kinds of things.

[_Inconceivable]

..Inconceivable has often talked about the "Mormon God" as if there are many Gods, so who knows?..

..If the Gods don't want to tell us, if they have some sort of game, competition, plan or development going on, and don't want us to know about it, well we are left in the dark.

I hold to the belief that anyone can make up anything that is not provable and claim it is from God.

~td~

Hi TD,

Most of the time, I refer to the Mormon God as a fictional character - mostly for the examples we've both alluded to. Because to call Him what He says He is (a perfect unchanging being) would be to mock both the definition and those seeking perfection.

[Guest]

We know that the Prophet never provided a detailed description of what took place that morning.

The earlier 1835 version adds the often overlooked detail that Joseph saw many heavenly angels in his vision, an element that would suggest that from a biblical perspective, Joseph experienced an Old Testamentlike prophetic call by interacting with God and the heavenly host.

Hence, assuming the vision occurred, how would one possibly know that the beings did not specifically identify themselves as God the Father and Jesus Christ?

In the canonized version, Joseph clearly states that the beloved Son revealed many things beyond the basic summary that Joseph shared (see JSH 20).

[_Black Moclips]

I was once browsing UFO websites (because I love that kind of stuff) and cam across a reference to a UFO experience related to the Mormon church. Anyway, I followed the link and basically someone had taken first vision experience and explained how it was like many modern abduction or UFO sitings. It got me thinking, well, I guess it is possible that super advanced humans from another universe visited Joseph Smith and this is what he saw. How would he know the difference between divinity and super advanced aliens? Oh, wait, God IS a super advanced alien from another planet. Now I get it.

[_truth dancer]

We know that the Prophet never provided a detailed description of what took place that morning.

The earlier 1835 version adds the often overlooked detail that Joseph saw many heavenly angels in his vision, an element that would suggest that from a biblical perspective, Joseph experienced an Old Testamentlike prophetic call by interacting with God and the heavenly host.

Hence, assuming the vision occurred, how would one possibly know that the beings did not specifically identify themselves as God the Father and Jesus Christ?

In the canonized version, Joseph clearly states that the beloved Son revealed many things beyond the basic summary that Joseph shared (see JSH 20).

Hi EE,

The question still remains... assuming Joseph Smith did have an otherworldly experience as he claimed, (in any of his renditions) how would anyone know if the two beings who claim to be God and "the" son of God were in fact telling the truth? Or were in fact appearing as they really are? Or were the only ones working with humans? Or did not have some ulterior motive?

Could supreme advanced beings not influence our behavior? Our minds? Our emotions? Our thoughts? Our experience of truth?

Who is to say that a realm of advanced otherworldly beings are not playing with us? Messing with us? Using us for their own purposes? Maybe the reason all the stories (religions) are so messy and confusing is because there are different heavenly beings telling us different things? Maybe they are competing for worshippers?

How could we know?

~td~

[_cinepro]

How could we know?

~td~

Here's how we "know":

- Joseph Smith later said it was Jesus and God.
- If we pray to God about the subject, He confirms it really happened through the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost can't lie, and God wouldn't do this if it weren't so.
- Joseph later brought forth the Book of Mormon, which testifies of Christ and brings people to him.
- Subsequent prophets have attested to the identity of the personages. The odds of all the latter-day Prophets being wrong about something (and not knowing it) are very small. Except for Noah's Ark.