The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

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_harmony
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:Well, Droopy, if you feel this way, why not prove them wrong? Get involved in the conversation. Instead of simply throwing out insults about how stupid the OP is, why not take the time to actually address some of Chris' points?

Who knows? It might actually make for an interesting discussion instead of devolving into another of your "this board is stupid" diabtribes. :wink:


That would mean he'd have to admit he has no answer.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Yoda

Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Yoda »

First of all, thanks, Chris, for putting together a great OP! :smile: I have had some of the same concerns myself, which leads to the whole question of progression between kingdoms.

Chris wrote:If God was really good, he'd let us all participate in the celestial society on equal footing from the very beginning, and let us work through things and learn from our mistakes in real life as a community. Sort of like what we do here on earth.


Since no one really knows what is "on the other side", I kind of speculate it this way. Maybe the act of simply coming to earth is, in itself, a "phase of life" all of us have to pass through. Since God basically seems to take a "hands off" approach, I think that a lot of the unfortunate things that happen to people (such as those who suffered in concentration camps, etc.) happen because of God's "hands off" approach, or, as the LDS Church has termed it, "free agency".

Some in this life suffer greatly. Others don't suffer as much. In the next life, though, I believe that everyone who is capable of learning from his/her mistakes, and who really has a desire to live in harmony and be with God will be given that opportunity. That's where I think the "equal footing" you spoke of will happen.
_harmony
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:... who really has a desire to live in harmony...


I'll take only 5%.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Yoda

Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Yoda »

harmony wrote:
liz3564 wrote:... who really has a desire to live in harmony...


I'll take only 5%.


You're tough! :lol:
_Droopy
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Droopy »

Well, Droopy, if you feel this way, why not prove them wrong? Get involved in the conversation. Instead of simply throwing out insults about how stupid the OP is, why not take the time to actually address some of Chris' points?

Who knows? It might actually make for an interesting discussion instead of devolving into another of your "this board is stupid" diabtribes. :wink:


I'll tell you what, if I actually find a proposition of set of assertions worth responding to philosophically (i.e., seriously), I'll indulge.

Don't wait up.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Droopy »

Since no one really knows what is "on the other side"


You base this, as a Latter Day Saint, upon what?

I kind of speculate it this way. Maybe the act of simply coming to earth is, in itself, a "phase of life" all of us have to pass through.


What do you mean? This is Church doctrine.
Since God basically seems to take a "hands off" approach, I think that a lot of the unfortunate things that happen to people (such as those who suffered in concentration camps, etc.) happen because of God's "hands off" approach, or, as the LDS Church has termed it, "free agency".


So you are, in essence, a Mormon deist, not an orthodox Mormon, is that correct?

Many of the Brethren have taught that God is continually involved in both the history of the earth and its nations as well as in our personal lives. This involvement is predicated, however, upon our receptiveness to his Spirit and influence. The holocaust occurred because the German nation rejected his Spirit for another, and also because other nations turned the other way while it occurred. The thing is, we have no idea regarding the spiritual forces that were unleashed and which were in conflict beyond the empirical world which only we know. Had it not been for God's preserving hand, Hitler, Stalin, and Tojo might have handily won WWII.

How can you say his "hands were off" things when you cannot see anything approaching all the dynamics and conditions involved?
















_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Yoda

Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Yoda »

Hey, Droopy--

I'm not ignoring your responses. I would like to continue this conversation with you. I am on my iPod tonight and will not have access to my full computer until tomorrow. I have a migraine tonight so I'm going to bed. Hope everyone has a good night.
_Gazelam
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _Gazelam »

If I was Evey and I found out I'd been manipulated like that, I'd have said, "oh hell no," and kicked V's ass for that.


One thing your failing to see is that all that she went through was a replay of what V had gone through. He was teaching her to be him so that she could take his place. There was nothing she had gone through that he had not gone through himself and grown stronger because of it.

Anyway, the idea that this life is a "probationary state" is kind of like that for me. You get to the end, having suffered, sweated, loved and bled, only to be told that it was all a "test"? Those folks in the concentration camps were just trying to get an "A" on Heavenly Father's little exam? Hell with that. I'd rather believe it's all meaningless than believe God is pulling a "V" and subjecting people to torture just to perversely test their mettle. He may be the brightest of the intelligences, but that doesn't give him the right to set up an entrance exam for admission to his celestial utopian republic and send all the failures to the "other" kingdoms.


Heres a little insight. Not all men are created equal. that's a lovely concept, but its not true. Everyone is different, and we all have different abilities and individual strengths. We all have to find our strengths and talents and develop them.

that's a funny thing I see in the church, this concept that we all need to conform to an ideal and become some sort of cookie cutter format Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood. Its not like that at all. We set moral boundries and goals of personal purity, but how we operate withen that frame is up to us.

that's one of the reasons we are supposed to do our home and visiting teaching. We get to know the strengths and abilities of others as well as the shortcomings and weakneses. We learn what strengths they have that we can draw from and what areas we might be able to assist them in.

If God was really good, he'd let us all participate in the celestial society on equal footing from the very beginning, and let us work through things and learn from our mistakes in real life as a community. Sort of like what we do here on earth. Frankly, the celestial kingdom sounds a bit too much like Mensa for my taste.


Somethign that might help you is a rereading of Abraham Chp.3. Verses 1-17 talk about the lord showing Abraham his numerous creations. If you couple these verses with the other books of Abraham you see that God organizes the various particles of the universe, melting them down and purifying them, and constructs the various worlds that we see spread out across the sky. These planets do not all turn out he same. Some worlds are large and used to set time and the order of things.

In verse 18 he states the words "as also..." meaning that just as there is variation in how worlds are formed, so also is their variation in the creation of spirits. Some are more capable of sustaining life and setting things in order than others.

In this life we are given the opportunity to use our talents to show what we are capable of. No doubt some of us are born into far more comfortable circumstances than others. I think a gfreat part of our judement day will be the showing of the long term effects of our choices. How one mans poor leadership or a mothers poor nurtuing can affect their posterity for generations to come.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Droopy wrote:
Well, Droopy, if you feel this way, why not prove them wrong? Get involved in the conversation. Instead of simply throwing out insults about how stupid the OP is, why not take the time to actually address some of Chris' points?

Who knows? It might actually make for an interesting discussion instead of devolving into another of your "this board is stupid" diabtribes. :wink:


I'll tell you what, if I actually find a proposition of set of assertions worth responding to philosophically (i.e., seriously), I'll indulge.

Don't wait up.


All this time I thought Mormons weren't supposed to take mind-altering drugs... I guess the brethren are easing up on the Word of Wisdom stuff. Good for them.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: The Whole Probationary State Idea Just Doesn't Do It for Me

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

What if there is a god and he's not really good? What if he/she/it is truly an arbitrary, unmitigated jerk?

KA
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