The Baloney Detection Kit

[_Daniel Peterson]

I have no idea.

I rather doubt it.

http://www.freedomfest.com/

[_beastie]

Well, if I didn't live on the other side of the US, I'd definitely attend. It sounds fascinating.

[_Brackite]

Thanks for this link. I love Shermer and loved this little lecture. For the benefit of folks who don't want to spend fourteen minutes listening to him, here are the bullet points in the baloney detection kit:

1. How reliable is the source of the claim?
2. Does the source make similar claims?
3. Have the claims been verified by someone else?
4. Does this fit with the way the world works?
5. Has anyone tried to disprove the claim?
6. Where does the preponderance of evidence point?
7. Is the claimant playing by the rules of science?
8. Is the claimant providing positive evidence?
9. Does the new theory account for as many phenomena as the old theory?
10. Are personal beliefs driving the claim?

My Speakers on my Computer just recently went out.
Thanks, For Posting this information, Beastie!

[_Some Schmo]

I have no idea.

I rather doubt it.

http://www.freedomfest.com/

Man, that's too bad. I'd love to see that too.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

I've enjoyed staying away from Mormon message boards. But having recently watched this lecture I wanted to come share it here. In so many ways this resonates with Mormonism and Mormon Apologetics. Ignoring contrary evidence, choosing obscure dated evidence (i.e. Florida Horse Bones), using different long shot explanations for each problem with the Book of Mormon. But one that rang true with me was "does this fit with the way the world works?"

I don't believe in magical rocks. I don't believe that a rock touched by god will glow to light a Jaradite Submarine, I don't believe rocks can be used to remotely view treasure, I don't believe that a rock has the ability to read a language and provide a translation to the operator of that rock, I don't believe a rock can be used to remotely view a hidden parchment of John.

Magic rocks with special powers are not possible in my scientific world view. Period.


Phaedrus

[_Daniel Peterson]

We're in substantial agreement on several of these items.

I don't believe in magical rocks, either. I don't believe in Jaredite submarines, and I don't believe that a rock has the ability to read a language and provide a translation to the operator of that rock. I don't believe that any Latter-day Saint has any reason, scriptural or historical or otherwise, to believe such things.

[_harmony]

Rocks have operators? Dang, I must not have the right kind of rocks.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

We're in substantial agreement on several of these items.
I don't believe in magical rocks, either. I don't believe in Jaredite submarines, and I don't believe that a rock has the ability to read a language and provide a translation to the operator of that rock. I don't believe that any Latter-day Saint has any reason, scriptural or historical or otherwise, to believe such things.

I'm going to disagree with you. Some people can compartmentalize the absurd and other's need everything to be true and accurate. And yes I think that such belief is required to assume at least minimal accuracy.

Joseph believed in seer stones and his ability to use them not only to find treasure and he sold his services in doing so. So either Joseph was self deluded to think he had such abilities which brings all his other judgments into question or he knew he didn't have the ability and by selling his services he was running a confidence game.

Joseph clearly used the Seer Stone/ Urim & Thummin to translate the Book of Mormon, the Parchment of John, and the Book of Abraham.

Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift and power of God(Letter from Joseph to John Wentworth)

Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear( David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ)

Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.("One of the Three Witnesses," Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881)

If the stones weren't necessary why were they created by the touch of god's finger on the top of a mountain and give to the Brother of Jared? Why were thy passed down from the Jaredites to the Nephites? Why were they retained and provided for the translation of the Book of Mormon?

Displaying and disappearing text seems like a magic rock to me. Even without the display and disappearing acts merely using them as a "medium" still implies they possess power. And unless I'm completely out of touch with reality someone claiming to use rocks as a "medium" and receive translations would be looked upon very suspiciously in our modern age.

Rocks making light in a dark ship defies modern scientific explanation and seems quite magical. Without a supernatural explanation it doesn't fall within present scientific explanation of how our world works.

You may not believe in magical rocks but clearly Joseph did and the accuracy of the scriptural accounts of magic rocks and testimonies of the individuals involved require at least a minimum of such belief.

Phaedrus

[_Daniel Peterson]

I don't believe you understood me, Phaedrus.

As for glowing stones being magical and conflicting with science -- well, maybe:

http://mi.BYU.edu/publications/insights ... um=7&id=72

The Book of Mormon doesn't appear to think that the stones were just run-of-the-mill ordinary things, though, and I, for one, don't know precisely what God can and cannot do, in all cases.

[_William Schryver]

Rocks making light in a dark ship defies modern scientific explanation and seems quite magical.

Sure. It's all "magic" when you don't know how it works.

It reminds me of a Star Trek TNG episode (Who Watches the Watchers) where the crew of the Enterprise is unintentionally discovered during their clandestine observations of the inhabitants of a technologically inferior planet. The inhabitants of the planet, in consequence of their awe of things they don't understand, initially believe Captain Picard to be a god.

Despite the fact that I do believe that my Father in heaven is a "god," as it were, I am inclined to believe that, when it comes to His "miracles," there is always a purely scientific mechanism at work, albeit one we inferior humans do not currently understand. Infusing a stone with energy such that it will emit light seems to me a rather unremarkable thing in comparison to other "miracles" I have observed in my life.