Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial meaning?

[_maklelan]

Maklelan, wouldn't the root word more likely be Tele which means distant or far away?

The tele- prefix derives from the root telos.

[_moksha]

Thanks.

Did Emanuel Swedenborg also use the term Telestial?

[_maklelan]

Thanks.

Did Emanuel Swedenborg also use the term Telestial?

Not that I'm aware of.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Taken from an archive at exmormon.org:

http://www.exmormon.org/Mormon/mormon034.htm

Subject: FOR THE RECORD..
Date: Jan 16 23:04
Author: Deconstructor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nowhere have I said that Swedenborg was the first one to suggest three heavens in the afterlife. Yes, some early gnostics compared heaven to the trinity and suggested each figure in the godhead pertained to a level. That's not my point.

Anyone who has actually read Swedenborg's book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders will recognize that Smith plagarized many names and ideas. There's all kinds of parallels between the 1778 English translation of Swedenborg's book and Smith's preaching of the 1830s.

My point isn't that Swedenborg was the first to suggest three heavens, but that he was the true orgin of terminology that ended up in Mormonism.

For example, Swedenborg writes about:

- the "Celestial Kingdom"

- after death, all people go to a waiting place called "The Spirit World" divided into a "Spirit Prison" for the unbaptized and a "Paradise" for the baptized

- Angels from the Celestial Kingdom are naked except for a white robe/garment given to them by "The Lord" which shines and glimers (See the late-1830 "First Vision" description of Moroni)

- Sprits and angels are in human form and one can converse with them "as one man to another." No singing, wings or halos.

- The "Sprit World" is this earth, but we cannot see the spirits because of "the veil".

- Marriage exist only in the highest Celesital Kingdom.

Granted, Swedenborg's book is almost 500 pages and Smith did not plagarize the whole thing. But since Smith admitted to reading this work, it's likely Smith borrowed key concepts in order to come up with D&C Section 76.

There really is very little in Mormon scipture detailing the afterlife, wheras Swedenborg dedicated a whole book to it. There was plenty for Smith to take from for his purposes.

[_Darth J]

/snip

+



=

Swedenborg

[_maklelan]

Taken from an archive at exmormon.org:

http://www.exmormon.org/Mormon/mormon034.htm

Subject: FOR THE RECORD..
Date: Jan 16 23:04
Author: Deconstructor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nowhere have I said that Swedenborg was the first one to suggest three heavens in the afterlife. Yes, some early gnostics compared heaven to the trinity and suggested each figure in the godhead pertained to a level. That's not my point.

Anyone who has actually read Swedenborg's book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders will recognize that Smith plagarized many names and ideas. There's all kinds of parallels between the 1778 English translation of Swedenborg's book and Smith's preaching of the 1830s.

My point isn't that Swedenborg was the first to suggest three heavens, but that he was the true orgin of terminology that ended up in Mormonism.

For example, Swedenborg writes about:

- the "Celestial Kingdom"

- after death, all people go to a waiting place called "The Spirit World" divided into a "Spirit Prison" for the unbaptized and a "Paradise" for the baptized

- Angels from the Celestial Kingdom are naked except for a white robe/garment given to them by "The Lord" which shines and glimers (See the late-1830 "First Vision" description of Moroni)

- Sprits and angels are in human form and one can converse with them "as one man to another." No singing, wings or halos.

- The "Sprit World" is this earth, but we cannot see the spirits because of "the veil".

- Marriage exist only in the highest Celesital Kingdom.

Granted, Swedenborg's book is almost 500 pages and Smith did not plagarize the whole thing. But since Smith admitted to reading this work, it's likely Smith borrowed key concepts in order to come up with D&C Section 76.

There really is very little in Mormon scipture detailing the afterlife, wheras Swedenborg dedicated a whole book to it. There was plenty for Smith to take from for his purposes.

Two concerns. First, those paraphrases don't sound like what I remember from Swedenborg. They sound more like attempts to fuzzy what is said until the gray areas begin to overlap. I'm aware that this theory has made the rounds for quite some time. Has anyone actually provided quotes directly from Swedenborg? Second, where did Smith state he read Swedenborg? Even Quinn only concludes that he heard Swedenborgs ideas second-hand from someone else.

[_zeezrom]

telestial has the same root as the word shulem

[_Chadillac]

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/hh/hh00toc.html

This is the first time I've heard of it, and so far I've just quickly glanced over it. There does seem to be quite a few similarities.

"There are three heavens, inmost, middle, and outmost, or third, second, and first... The good of the inmost or third heaven is called celestial, the good of the middle or second is called spiritual, and the good of the outmost or first, spiritual-natural "

"The world of spirits is not heaven, nor is it hell, but it is the intermediate place or state between the two; for it is the place that man first enters after death; and from which after a suitable time he is either raised up into heaven or cast down into hell in accord with his life in the world. "

"As heaven is from the human race, and angels therefore are of both sexes, and from creation woman is for man and man is for woman, thus the one belongs to the other, and this love is innate in both, it follows that there are marriages in heaven as well as on the earth"

" Let them know therefore that every child, wherever he is born, whether within the church or outside of it, whether of pious parents or impious, is received when he dies by the Lord and trained up in heaven, and taught in accordance with Divine order, and imbued with affections for what is good, and through these with knowledges of what is true; and afterwards as he is perfected in intelligence and wisdom is introduced into heaven and becomes an angel"

"I have been taught in many ways that the heathen who have led a moral life and have lived in obedience and subordination and mutual charity in accordance with their religion, and have thus received something of conscience, are accepted in the other life, and are there instructed with solicitous care by the angels in the goods and truths of faith; and that when they are being taught they behave themselves modestly, intelligently, and wisely, and readily accept truths and adopt them."

[_maklelan]

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.theisticscience.org/books/hh/hh00toc.html

This is the first time I've heard of it, and so far I've just quickly glanced over it. There does seem to be quite a few similarities. ie. Three heavens, Celestial Kingdom, marriage in Celestial Kingdom, etc.

I also found this, "As husband and wife should be one, and should live together in the inmost of life, and as they together make one angel in heaven, so true marriage love is impossible between one husband and several wives "

Here's some of the portion on the three heavens:

The Divine that flows in from the Lord and is received in the third or inmost heaven is called celestial, and in consequence the angels there are called celestial angels; the Divine that flows in from the Lord and is received in the second or middle heaven is called spiritual, and in consequence the angels there are called spiritual angels; while the Divine that flows in from the Lord and is received in the outmost or first heaven is called natural; but as the natural of that heaven is not like the natural of the world, but has the spiritual and the celestial within it, that heaven is called the spiritual-natural and the celestial-natural, and in consequence the angels there are called spiritual-natural and celestial- natural [5.2]. Those who receive influx from the middle or second heaven, which is the spiritual heaven, are called spiritual- natural; and those who receive influx from the third or inmost heaven, which is the celestial heaven, are called celestial- natural. The spiritual-natural angels and the celestial-natural angels are distinct from each other; nevertheless they constitute one heaven, because they are in one degree.

32. In each heaven there is an internal and an external; those in the internal are called there internal angels, while those in the external are called external angels. The internal and the external in the heavens, or in each heaven, hold the same relation as the voluntary and intellectual in man -- the internal corresponding to the voluntary, and the external to the intellectual. Every thing voluntary has its intellectual; one cannot exist without the other. The voluntary may be compared to a flame and the intellectual to the light therefrom.

The three heavens are called the celestial, the spiritual, and the natural. It also divides each heaven into an internal and external, with different names for the angels inhabiting each level and division. Here's something problematic with comparing the two:

Because of this distinction an angel of one heaven cannot go among the angels of another heaven, that is, no one can ascend from a lower heaven and no one can descend from a higher heaven.

This is the opposite of Smith's vision. And again:

Because of this difference between the angels of the celestial kingdom and the angels of the spiritual kingdom they are not together, and have no intercourse with each other. They are able [4.10]; to communicate only through intermediate angelic societies, which are called celestial-spiritual. Through these the celestial kingdom flows into the spiritual [4.11]; and from this it comes to pass that although heaven is divided into two kingdoms it nevertheless makes one. The Lord always provides such intermediate angels through whom there is communication and conjunction.

The only real overlap I see are in the principles outlined by Paul in Corinthians.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Mak,

Still at the end of any defense like this, there are many many more problems similar to this one.

Smith was telling lies to cover up the lies and on and on..