fantasy and lies

[_stemelbow]

Why is it speculated here (I've seen it a few times) that leaders of the Church, I mean General Authorities, don't really believe the Church is true, as they say? Any reason to believe they don't believe?

[_just me]

Believing a fantasy doesn't make it true.

And believing truth is a fantasy doen't make it a fantasy. Now it would be great if the LDS church was proving false. Then, people would have a great excuse to be hurt, depressed, feel cheated, etc. But until that time, the LDS truth claim still stands.

What is the truth claim that stands?

The church is a real life church, that is true.

The church being The One True & Living Church run by Jesus himself if quite another ballgame and can be concluded as false using logic and intuition to many people's satisfaction.

[_Buffalo]

Believing a fantasy doesn't make it true.

And believing truth is a fantasy doen't make it a fantasy. Now it would be great if the LDS church was proving false. Then, people would have a great excuse to be hurt, depressed, feel cheated, etc. But until that time, the LDS truth claim still stands.

Deutero Isaiah alone in the Book of Mormon proves it's all false.

[_Buffalo]

Why is it speculated here (I've seen it a few times) that leaders of the Church, I mean General Authorities, don't really believe the Church is true, as they say? Any reason to believe they don't believe?

Perhaps it's assumed they know the church's ugliest warts. I don't think that all of them do. Even if they did, they have enough motivation to set that aside, no matter how troubling.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Why is it speculated here (I've seen it a few times) that leaders of the Church, I mean General Authorities, don't really believe the Church is true, as they say? Any reason to believe they don't believe?

It's simply giving them credit for their intelligence. They know that they are flailing in the dark. They have to know it. They aren't stupid.

[_DrW]

Individuals who are willing to assume a leadership role have a responsibility to use minimal good judgement in their decision-making. So for those in charge, it is either a lie or gross incompetence. In either case, they do not deserve the credibility and blind loyalty that they are given by rank and file members.

Those in leadership positions have a responsibility to check their "beliefs" against objective criteria to insure that they are not leading in error.

For example, LDS beliefs before 1967 would have predicted that, if found, the Joseph Smith papyri could be translated by conventional means to yield the Book of Abraham. Mormon beliefs before 1980 would have predicted that substantial Semitic DNA would have been found in native American populations. Mormon beliefs still today would predict that homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice".

The fact that these and many other Mormon beliefs are absolutely, unequivocally, and totally wrong with regard to any of these predictions should have been cause for re-evaultion of belief and doctrine for the leaders. No doubt it was for some.

IMHO when people older than about 25 years of age, with an IQ of greater than about 100 claim to maintain unfounded belief in the face of strong multiple lines of evidence to the contrary, they cross the line from "fantasy" to lying.

If one generates and maintains fantasy and irrational ideation (delusions) within their own minds, and are not a danger to themselves and others because of this, society looks the other way, and is none the worse for doing so.

However, when one generates and maintains irrational ideation (delusions), which they then attempt to impose on others together with threats to the eternal well being of others who do not have the same demonstrably delusional beliefs, they become a danger to society and need to be sanctioned.

The faithful will claim that Mormonism should get a pass on demonstrably delusional beliefs because Mormonism is a religion. This is simply another manifestation of the sloppy thinking that often accompanies delusional beliefs. This fact can be demonstrated by asking the faithful believers if they would agree that the anti-social behaviors of the FLDS, and fundamentalist Islamists should also get a pass because they are members of a religion.

If so, QED.

If not, why not?

[_Kevin Graham]

Zee, do you have proof that the LDS church is a lie? I don't think so. Do you have proof that it is a fantasy? I don't think so. But of course, you need to think it is all a lie and a fantasy. But where is the proof?

We prove it all the time, but the problem is some people need it to be true so badly, that facts really don't matter to them. You and the apologists here are a perfect example of this. To try flipping the tables on us and saying we're the ones who "needs" it to not be true, therefore we keep saying it isn't without evidence, is idiotic. Why would anyone ever come to the table needing another Church not to be true? We know it isn't true because that is what the overwhelming mountain of evidence suggests.

Believers have no business pretending to base their belief on rational thought, facts and evidence, because they know perfectly well it is based on their convoluted concept of "faith." Strangely, they think this is a good reason to believe in stupid crap. Mormonism makes sense in fairy tale form, when first heard among adolescents. But as you get older, you have to fight with the human capacity for reason, and the numerous presuppositions you've held since childhood. History provides enough evidence that we can safely dismiss Mormonism as a fraud. Joseph Smith was a sad character who manipulated hundreds and thousands and lived off their backs, pretty much. He was a lazy, uneducated prankster who did too much thinking with his penis than his head, and that is what got him in trouble in the end. Of course his public lie that he wasn't engaged in polygamy will be ignored or dismissed by believers as evidence he was merely "human." Because that is how you're conditioned to treat evidence that runs contrary to what you have been telling yourself you "know is true" for so long. Smith's inability to translate ancient languages will also be torn from its context and drawn into an apologetic whirlwind and dragged down various rabbit trails, all designed to ignore the elephant in the room and focus on dissected elements, for "plausibility." But the point is there is never any amount of evidence that would prove to you the Church isn't true, because you've already conditioned yourself to reject, rationalize and dismiss all evidence that comes your way, as an act of Satan. You cannot reason with people who think like this. I know, because I used to think the same way, as many of us here once did as well.

[_Themis]

The ambiguous "the Church is true" seems to be replaced by "the Church is not true" by many.

I don't' know, what would you even mean by saying a Church is a lie or is fantasy? I mean real people practice Mormonism.

The church is true has a specific meaning that almost every adult member understands. The church is not true also has specific meaning that almost every adult member also understands. Saying one or the other can be based entirely on belief or based more on evidence.

[_Kevin Graham]

Just the simple fact that the Church has gone so far out of its way to institutionalize this slogan among its sheep, and sets aside testimony meetings on a regular basis to pound the point into their heads over and over, should be your first clue that the Church isn't true.

I mean if it were so obviously true, they really wouldn't need to keep convincing themselves via repetition of said slogan. And make no mistake about it, that is precisely why they do it. It works as a constant reasoning inhibitor.

[_zeezrom]

The church contains lies and fantasy and truths.

Just me,

When I think of truth in Mormonism, I think of things like:

Be nice to your wife
Be respectful to your elders
Do unto others as you would...
Be frugal
Avoid addictions

Etc.

But I'm thinking this is not Mormon. In other words, these ideas were not born from Mormonism. So, what you are left with is this:

Joseph saw HF and JC
Nephi built a ship
Jesus visited southern Mexico
Etc

Those are Mormon, born and raised.