Theodicy

[_lostindc]

Hey Lamanite,

Long time! I remember discussing this subject, briefly, with you on the MAD board.

I enjoyed the essay.

What I find interesting about the Mormon view of earth is that it is a place held in dominion by the adversary. As the Temple video goes, the adversary is suppose to have the ability to cause all kinds of issues here.

Now justifying why these tragedies are necessary is beyond me. I have no answer and I am not sure what I even believe.

[_stemelbow]

While I read your essay and I feel like I "get it", as I've often felt the same way, I feel it necessary to offer this possibility: for the intense and extreme suffering some go through, He eternally blesses the sufferer to such an extent that it more than makes up for their suffering, which suffering surely has an end, if Mormonism carries any truth.

As to whether or not, and why, God won't end such suffering, I'm still working on that.

[_Lamanite]

Yes, I think I know something of how you feel.

You know, there is much to love about Mormonism, even if one rejects a literal belief in its doctrines.

I want to defend myself and my beliefs. But if being honest, my questions and doubts fly in the face of a few key pieces of Mormon Doctrine.

It sure doesn't feel comfortable.

Big UP!

[_Buffalo]

Yes, I think I know something of how you feel.

You know, there is much to love about Mormonism, even if one rejects a literal belief in its doctrines.

I want to defend myself and my beliefs. But if being honest, my questions and doubts fly in the face of a few key pieces of Mormon Doctrine.

It sure doesn't feel comfortable.

Big UP!

Yes, cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable. In my experience it doesn't go away until you allow yourself to come to a conclusion that doesn't embrace paradox - in other words, if you're holding onto two conflicting world views, you must reject one or remain in a state of cognitive dissonance.

[_Lamanite]

He eternally blesses the sufferer to such an extent that it more than makes up for their suffering, which suffering surely has an end,

CFR

Does innocent suffering give me some kind of pass in the hereafter? Even if I'm not valiant in my testimony of Christ, will the fact that I was physically beaten and starved somehow get me into the Celestial Kingdom if I but accept the saving ordinances?


Big UP!


Lamanite

[_Buffalo]

He eternally blesses the sufferer to such an extent that it more than makes up for their suffering, which suffering surely has an end,

CFR

Does innocent suffering give me some kind of pass in the hereafter? Even if I'm not valiant in my testimony of Christ, will the fact that I was physically beaten and starved somehow get me into the Celestial Kingdom if I but accept the saving ordinances?


Big UP!


Lamanite

Jesus actually taught something to that effect, in that suffering itself gets you into heaven, along with poverty, and wealth will keep you out. Of course, those teachings are largely ignored.

Perhaps Jesus was struggling with this issue too, and that was his way of explaining it.

[_KimberlyAnn]

(I don't post on boards very much anymore so I want to say hi to all my friends especially cupcake and John W.)

A warm hello to you, too, Sir!

KA

[_Fence Sitter]

I do not think the LDS God is omnipotent. We already believe he cannot create matter and that we are coeternal (in some ways) with him. Why is it so difficult to believe that he cannot control evil, what ever the cause?

In the classic sense of the word "Omnipotent"- The Mormon God is not. However, he has proven time and time again that he can provide food, clothing, water, shelter, etc.

Did the widows cruz go empty? Did Moses strike a rock and provide water for all of Israel? Did God feed Israel with manna enough to spare? I could go on.

The fact is, God can relieve innocent suffering and more. But won't/doesn't (regularly or often)
Why?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Maybe those instances he can intervene and those where he cannot are governed by laws, some sort of cosmic balance between him and evil. When he intervenes, he also creates an opportunity for evil to do so. I don't know and it is all speculation, but in the end I think you have to accept he cannot control evil rather than chooses not to, if you want to hold on to a belief in a benevolent God. Frankly it is this issue, more than any other, that causes me serious doubts about his existence.

[_stemelbow]

CFR

Does innocent suffering give me some kind of pass in the hereafter?

huh? I don't know if its any kind of pass, but since we're all, essentially, to be given eternal blessings in the hereafter, I'm not sure its easy to characterize the blessing as gaining some sort of pass.

Even if I'm not valiant in my testimony of Christ, will the fact that I was physically beaten and starved somehow get me into the Celestial Kingdom if I but accept the saving ordinances?

I don't know if, even, Celestial salvation is the reward I had in mind for all who suffer innocently(although I'm certainly not closed to that idea at all). But since we're just not privy to the blessings of salvation, no matter what kingdom is inherited, I'm not sure its so easy to dismiss the blessings of salvation. Suffering is so ungodly its hard to imagine that there is any way to make up for it, but perhaps, in part, we'll understand it after this life. Perhaps the blessings of salvation are so grand we will feel far more comfortable with it all.

I am saying, if Mormonism is true, how can we possibly see suffering as something to blame God for, if we don't have the full picture?

[_MrStakhanovite]

Hello Lamanite,

Thanks for posting this here and letting us comment on your blog post. I respect the amount of thought you’ve put into this issue and I think that reflects greatly on you and your personal faith.

As someone who is always surveying contemporary formulations of the Problem of Evil (and Pain/Suffering/Divine Hiddeness), and theological works related to this area, I regret to inform you that there isn’t a book length work, published paper, or meditation available in English that is going to be very comforting or provide plausible answers.

My suggestion is to start getting intimate with the book of Job, in fact, make it part of your daily scripture study. You’ll need a modern and up-to-date translation of Job, and I suggest getting yourself a NSRV Study Bible and Robert Alter’s book, “The Wisdom Books” which has his new translation of Job in it, with commentary.

The reason I stress Job so much, is because when Job goes to encounter God in the whirlwind, he is there to have a confrontation. It isn’t a reasoned dialogue, rationality and proper discourse do not enter the scene at all, but it’s merely Job and God, entering into relation and confronting one another. I think this suits your purpose well, since you are happy with the LDS Faith as it is, but find yourself face to face with suffering that you cannot account for. Allow me to invoke Job Chapter 9 (27-35) a bit:

If I say, 'Let me forget my complaint, I will abandon my anger and restrain myself.' I will gather in all my sadness, I know that You will not declare me innocent. If I am wicked, why should I toil in vain? I washed myself with snow water and cleansed my hands with purity. Then You will plunge me in the ditch, and my garments shall abhor me. For He is not man like me, that I should answer Him, 'Let us come together in debate.' There is no arbiter between us, who will place his hand on both of us. Let Him take His rod off me, and let His terror not frighten me. I will speak and I will not fear Him, for I am not so with myself.

Can you imagine President Monson saying something like this at General Conference? Always remember that Job was silent when God asked, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.” Not so with many modern day apologists of any stripe. It’s comical to me, when an intelligent man as Rob Bowman basically ends up saying in so many words, “ No, I wasn’t there, and you have not given us the full details, but we know exactly what it must have been like and why you did it” (minor digression, I think this is one of the greater failings of Reformed Theology, given all it’s typical rigor).