What is the purpose of the veil?

[_harmony]

You do have to concede, however, that B.H. Roberts paid the price to get where he got. His word is worth something more than someone who did not pay the price that he did. You are free to choose, as we all are, to either ignore or accept the worth/value of what someone has to tell/teach us.

To ignore what he said simply because he is a man seems somewhat lame, in my opinion. Apparently your experience with the Book of Mormon varies from B.H. Roberts and his forty plus years of study and research.

To each his/her own.

Regards,
MG

You misunderstand me. I may agree with Roberts, but not for the same reasons. I don't agree with anyone, just because they spend/t their lives doing XYZ. Many men have spent eons doing XYZ and yet were completely wrong and essentially lived their lives without truth.

I can respect him for his study, like I respect many others for their study, but I won't follow him or take his advice, based only on his study... I won't take the word of any man over my own experience.

Puts me kinda sideways with prophets and Daniel sometimes.

[_mentalgymnast]

Thanks for picking up the discussion up here in the higher kingdom. It seems kinda slow down below.

In the interest of disclosure, I am a disaffected member looking critically at church doctrines and beliefs, and my my wife asked me recently about the need for a veil. I understand at the believing level what the veil is for. Did for 40 years. Now the idea of a veil of forgetfulness seems rather strange when I consider how a Father normally interacts with a son, here in our mortal existance, in a healthy F/S relationship (all things in this life being patterned after the one we came from, right?) I can't see myself hiding from my children, leaving them to their own devices, hoping they fall in with the right crowd (a very small crowd at that), and then punishing them eternally for the choices they made based on the very poor information I gave them through the likes of BY or Joseph Smith. Information that is often contradictory, meaningless, or just plain strange.

I suppose the main thing I'd take issue with here is your statement dealing with eternal punishment based upon less than full disclosure. The fact is, that the CofJCofLDS has a very clear message of faith, hope, and the necessary attributes necessary to eternal happiness and to live the life that God lives. The ordinances point us in the right direction. We then have latitude as to how we live our lives within certain restraints. Jesus said that his yoke is easy and the burden is light. We make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Poor information? I'm not sure I'm with you on that. Each week when we attend church we are learning the gospel basics that can help us return back to God and to follow in the footsteps of Christ. The information, just like the matter of fact information we hopefully give to our kids, is clear and concise in its meaning.

A veil of forgetfulness provides us with true independence in our actions. God hiding himself from us unless we consistently seek to find him results in a situation where we choose to move that direction, or not.

All that said, I understand where you're coming from. It is difficult to have faith in a veil which separates us from that which we cannot readily see. The only thing that would make it all right in as far as all the crap that happens because of God remaining hidden in many respects, and the resulting bad behavior that people engage in to make this world what it is, is to have a fail safe system/plan put into effect by which everything will come out OK in the end.

Thus we have the teachings concerning the atonement of Christ.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Are we the only Christians who believe in a Pre-existence, and thus the need for the veil doctrine? Is there any scriptural basis for the veil, pre-restoration?

There are some Bible/religion scholars on this board that can hopefully chime in and answer this question to both your satisfaction and mine, however, you do have some scriptures in the Bible that seem to point in the direction of a veil between this life and a previous one.

...God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (Num. 27:16).

...all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7

...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7

...Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5

...Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1

...who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2

...poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28

...For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29

...chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4

...subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9

...angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6

...Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hey MG,

First, Harmony made this point but I want to reiterate it.

There are women and men all over this world who devote their lives in faith to discover truth and come to different conclusions that did BHR. Think of all the monks, lamas, priests, Imams, nuns, rabbis, swamis, etc. etc. who give their entire lives to their God. Really, BHR while did some searching certainly had a life outside his devotion.

In terms of the veil.

Something feels strange to me about a teaching that goes something like this:

All this happened to you before you came here, and all this is going to happen to you after you die. You don't remember it but you have to trust me. God doesn't want to be here, to let you see him, or let you know first hand but wants me to tell you... trust me. If you don't believe me and trust me God will not let you know about him. Trust me. If you pray and don't believe me it is because you are not worthy, not trying hard enough, or you do not have enough faith. You have got to trust me.

Ya know?

~td~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey MG,

First, Harmony made this point but I want to reiterate it.

There are women and men all over this world who devote their lives in faith to discover truth and come to different conclusions that did BHR. Think of all the monks, lamas, priests, Imams, nuns, rabbis, swamis, etc. etc. who give their entire lives to their God.

BHR's fifteen hundred pages or so dealing with Book of Mormon studies is qualitatively different. Here's a great intellectual who dedicated himself to proving that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God:

The Book of Mormon of necessity must submit to every test, to literary criticism, as well as to every other class of criticism; for our age is above all things critical, and especially critical of sacred literature, and we may not hope that the Book of Mormon will escape closest scrutiny; neither, indeed, is it desirable that it should escape.

Anyone else that's done anything similar?

In terms of the veil.

Something feels strange to me about a teaching that goes something like this:

All this happened to you before you came here, and all this is going to happen to you after you die. You don't remember it but you have to trust me. God doesn't want to be here, to let you see him, or let you know first hand but wants me to tell you... trust me. If you don't believe me and trust me God will not let you know about him. Trust me. If you pray and don't believe me it is because you are not worthy, not trying hard enough, or you do not have enough faith. You have got to trust me.

Ya know?

This is the first thing that came into my mind as I read your response:

http://youtu.be/s46SgIBpQ-Q

Yes, when all is said and done, who are you going to trust? I was talking with a friend in my ward a couple of days ago and I asked him where would he be if it wasn't for the Book of Mormon. He is well aware of historical and scientific issues revolving around Mormonism. He's a smart guy. His answer was that he would be an open minded agnostic. I think I'd be in the same boat. It isn't necessary to trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader in order to believe in the restoration of the gospel and the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

It isn't necessary to trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader in order to believe in the restoration of the gospel and the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG

Don't say that too loudly. You'll have posters here thinking you lie to your bishop to get your temple recommend.

[_Patriarchal gripe]

Quote: It isn't necessary to trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader in order to believe in the restoration of the gospel and the truth of the Book of Mormon.

This is the approach that I have a problem with when it comes from the faithful. It is cafeteria Mormonism applied to reinforce faith. The same approach taken by the disaffected is denounced from the pulpit by Apostles and NOM types are routinely scourged by the faithful and critic alike for the cafeteria approach as either apostacy in disguise or intellectual dishonesty.

If one shouldn't necessarily trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader, then exactly how much should one trust anything that comes from the mouth of a church leader? And to bring it back to the original question, consequently, why should I trust any man who claims to speak for God to be right on what we are experiencing here in this life after the veil was drawn over our memories? Why should I even trust my own personal feelings about that theology, when I recognize that it doesn't, in fact, ring true to 99% of humans who aren't born into my church who hear the message from the missionaries? Shouldn't God have wired that 99% a little better to accept the message?

[_mentalgymnast]

Quote: It isn't necessary to trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader in order to believe in the restoration of the gospel and the truth of the Book of Mormon.

This is the approach that I have a problem with when it comes from the faithful. It is cafeteria Mormonism applied to reinforce faith. The same approach taken by the disaffected is denounced from the pulpit by Apostles and NOM types are routinely scourged by the faithful and critic alike for the cafeteria approach as either apostacy in disguise or intellectual dishonesty.

If one shouldn't necessarily trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader, then exactly how much should one trust anything that comes from the mouth of a church leader? And to bring it back to the original question, consequently, why should I trust any man who claims to speak for God to be right on what we are experiencing here in this life after the veil was drawn over our memories? Why should I even trust my own personal feelings about that theology, when I recognize that it doesn't, in fact, ring true to 99% of humans who aren't born into my church who hear the message from the missionaries? Shouldn't God have wired that 99% a little better to accept the message?

Notice that I said that one can have a testimony or belief in the restoration and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon without 100% trust in every word that may come from a church leader. In other words's, the restoration of the gospel and its attending blessings are able to be realized without having to fret endlessly upon whether or not everything that every church leader says is directly from God's mouth. OTOH, to reject the restoration of the gospel because of something that a leader says or does is unnecessary and even unwise, in my opinion.

The veil, doctrinally, is not dependent upon what a church leader may say or do. Scripturally, the veil is defensible. The veil also makes sense if one agrees with the teachings of Bro. Hafen in the link I provided earlier.

http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1

I haven't seen anyone take him to task yet.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

It isn't necessary to trust everything that comes from the mouth of a church leader in order to believe in the restoration of the gospel and the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG

Don't say that too loudly. You'll have posters here thinking you lie to your bishop to get your temple recommend.

You're not making any sense with this warning/remonstration. You seem to have some sort of phobia, or at least think that I should? Why would not trusting everything that comes or has come from the mouth of a church leader have anything to do with passing a temple recommend interview?

Not trusting every word at face value (In other words's, assuming that every word that comes from a church leader always comes directly from God's mouth) that comes from the mouth of a church leader doesn't in any way negate trust/support for leaders to carry out their stewardship/calling.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

BHR's fifteen hundred pages or so dealing with Book of Mormon studies is qualitatively different. Here's a great intellectual who dedicated himself to proving that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God:

Are you kidding? There are thousands and thousands of men and women the world over who dedicate their lives, meaning every single minute to serve God. I'm talking about literally, devoting all to God. Not trying to prove something, but giving their lives to God in totality. And, yes there are those who study and study and study and study and study who are not trying to prove something but trying to understand. They come to different conclusions.


Who to trust?

I regret trusting many men.

I have learned to trust what feels true in my heart, what makes sense to my mind, (without having to do all sorts of mental gymnastics, smile), what seems holy to me. I've learned to trust my instincts, my intuition, and my gut.

Guys who claim they are the chosen one of God? Nope! Self-proclaimed prophets? Nope!

:-)

~td~