George Gilder and the likeminded

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _DrW »

EAllusion wrote:There was dishonesty at the Dover trial, but neither George Gilder nor Bruce Chapman testified at Dover, so I don't see how the Discovery Institute co-founders would be at risk for perjury. I don't think Behe or Minnich were intellectually honest, but I also don't think they committed anything like perjury if memory serves.

Judge Jone's comments on dishonest testimony from the defendants was in reference to blatant dishonesty from school board members trying to obscure their religious motivations for getting ID taught. Alan Bonsell in particular was highly disingenuous and clearly angered Judge Jones.

You are correct. I thought that I recalled his name on the witness list, but on looking at the website again it was Gillen (who did testify) not Gilbert. (Sorry)

In any case, I think that the real problems for DI started when the plaintiffs found a copy of a pre-publication draft of "Of Pandas and People", provided by the Discovery Institute (and for which Gilbert and Chapmen, as managers and executives of the Discovery Institute, were responsible).

In this pre-publication DRAFT the plaintiffs were able to find passages where the term "creation" had not yet been replaced with the word "design", or where creation appeared crossed out in the text and "design" or "intelligent design" written in.

This kind of screw-up in providing materials for legal discovery, along with briefs to the Court from DI stating that ID was not creationism (again for which the executives of DI were responsible), provided written proof that DI was being far less than honest in their representations before the court. This was an institutional problem that was simply reflected in the testimony of the individual witnesses, which often contradicted what the plaintiffs had found in writing.

The Discovery Institute itself came in for the harsh criticism from the Judge. And it took a well deserved hit in the media as well.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Some Schmo »

In this pre-publication DRAFT the plaintiffs were able to find passages where the term "creation" had not yet been replaced with the word "design", or where creation appeared crossed out in the text and "design" or "intelligent design" written in.

My favorite part of the Dover trial was when they found an instance of the word "creation" that hadn't been successfully replaced, but had "intelligent design" (or just the word "design" - I can't remember which exactly) inserted in the middle, so it looked something like "creaintelligent designtion".

It was the missing link in the evolution from creation to intelligent design. Good times.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Buffalo »

Some Schmo wrote:
In this pre-publication DRAFT the plaintiffs were able to find passages where the term "creation" had not yet been replaced with the word "design", or where creation appeared crossed out in the text and "design" or "intelligent design" written in.

My favorite part of the Dover trial was when they found an instance of the word "creation" that hadn't been successfully replaced, but had "intelligent design" (or just the word "design" - I can't remember which exactly) inserted in the middle, so it looked something like "creaintelligent designtion".

It was the missing link in the evolution from creation to intelligent design. Good times.


Oh yeah, that's hilarious. You can see the evolution from creationism to ID here:

http://ncse.com/book/export/html/109
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Some Schmo »

Buffalo wrote: Oh yeah, that's hilarious. You can see the evolution from creationism to ID here:

http://ncse.com/book/export/html/109

Thanks for that. I tried finding the exact quote but couldn't, so obviously, I was going off memory.

Still... too funny.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Milesius
_Emeritus
Posts: 559
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:12 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Milesius »

Barbara Forrest is a hobbyist and a noxious mediocrity, not a true philosopher, as she demonstrated recently in her Synthese hit piece, which reads like it were written by an overly-ambitious undergrad given to bouts of histrionics. The Synthese editors-in-chief were so thoroughly (and justifiably) embarrassed with her paper that they took the unusual step of issuing a disclaimer for the special issue that included her paper. They also are revising the rules about special issues so they have more oversight, which is a very good thing, since morons like Glenn Branch and James Fetzer should not be tasked with quality control.

Incidentally, Forrest is the same pretentious moron who claimed that "Evolution...is at the center of...much physical science (as in geology)..." which is pure flatulence.*


*Full quotation, from an op-ed she wrote with Paul Gross to a Dover area newspaper back in 2004:

Evolution, on the other hand, is at the center of all life science, much physical science (as in geology), and applied fields such as medicine and agriculture.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »

Early on, Gilder repeats the old canard about natural selection being a tautology: “…at its root, Darwinian theory is tautological. What survives is fit; what is fit survives,” he writes. This is really bottom-of-the-barrel stuff, requiring a willful misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Let’s clear this up: Natural selection is about the probability of an organism surviving and reproducing relative to the rest of the population. The theory requires that some features of living things are more conducive to survival and reproduction than are others; hence if these features are heritable, they will increase in frequency over successive generations. Since there is no a priori requirement that this be true of the world, it’s hardly a tautology, now is it?


It appears that both Delusion and Mr. Reuland would benefit appreciable from a refresher course in basic logic.

Reuland states that the concept of natural selection is not a tautology (a logically circular concept that is true by definition) and then proceeds to claim:

Natural selection is about the probability of an organism surviving and reproducing relative to the rest of the population. The theory requires that some features of living things are more conducive to survival and reproduction than are others; hence if these features are heritable, they will increase in frequency over successive generations.


Translation: Natural selection claims that, to the degree an organism actually survives to pass on its genetic material to successive generations...they, well, survive to pass on their DNA to successive generations. All the rest of the verbiage regarding "probability" and some features of living things being "more conducive" to such passing on of genetic material is nothing more than details within the same basic conceptual framework.

That there is no a priori necessity of natural selection having ever existed at all is irrelevant: the theory of evolution by natural selection assumes this to be the case and assumes this to be an inherent feature of the natural world. The concept, however, is tautological on cursory inspection as it does nothing more than claim that what happened - happened. Natural selection isn't so much an explanation of the actual mechanisms of evolutionary change as it is a pointing out of their effects - the actual selections or de-selections that took place or can be theorized to be taking place at present.

All organic forms now present, or that were ever present on earth must have, by their very existence, been selected for. All those possible forms that never existed, or existed briefly and were culled out by natural selective forces, were, by definition, not selected. As an explanation for a primary mechanism of evolutionary change, then, natural selection simply explains itself, but provides no real explanatory information that tells us anything we didn't know before, such as that a tree species that does not have genetic or morphological defenses against some insect that uses it as food can be deselected from further evolutionary development by its failure to develop those defenses, and can be taken into extinction by said insect.

A species that cannot adapt adequately to climatic changes over time (climatic minimums and maximums) may become extinct - a victim of selective pressures to which it could not acclimatize itself.

Gilder is precisely correct. No possible empirical observation or test could possible falsify the concept of natural selection, as nothing in the natural world that actually exists can ever count as evidence against it, as nothing in the natural world that actually exists could ever be anything other than that which was, in actuality, selected or which is in the process of being selected or not selected to various degrees. As the natural environment changes over time, as populations become isolated and diverge evolutionarily, change occurs, and all change is subsumed within the concept of selective evolutionary pressure. It can always be verified empirically, but never falsified. Everything that occurs in nature can be understood as evidence of natural selection, so long as their is any variation at all, such as differences in beak size.

We could live in a world where all organisms, regardless of their traits, were equally likely to survive and reproduce. But a century of experiment and observation shows that this isn’t the case. In their famous work on Darwin’s Finches, Peter and Rosemary Grant found that a difference as small as 0.5 mm in beak size was enough to cause a measurable change in the likelihood of survival. Obviously, given that those features which improve survival can be detected empirically, Gilder’s blather about everything being equally good is nonsense.


Which is to say that a Finch with flippers would ultimately be selected out as a viable life form, unless some niche in which this adaptation was useful and maximized survivability opened up or was already present. Natural selection still remains self defining here. What is selected is selected, and what is not is not.

That the selective process has been empirically detected on the level of surface phenomena simply confirms the tautology; we have no further information on how evolutionary processes actually work, only that they are working, which is trivial.

No point in going on, as the rest of the article, like its proceeding bulk, is primarily a snarky ad hominem attack on Gilder, and not a serious critique of his ideas. Reuland is just a Darwinian fundamentalist who has a chip on his shoulder against God, and hence, a chip on his shoulder against "intelligent design."

Reuland needs to believe, not for scientific reasons, but for personal, worldview reasons, that all is blind, random chance, and blind, random chance is all.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:
MrStakhanovite wrote:One day, I hope Droopy will be able to write a post without using some form of the words "Intellect" and "Substance".
I like that he described Steve Reuland as an "ideologically fevored left-wing ideologue." He should've added "who is corrupted by ideology" for the trifecta.



Staying true to the Discovery Institute’s tactics, he associates things with evolutionary biology that have little or no association at all, and in every case these just happen to be things that are disliked by right-wing ideologues such as George Gilder. People like him apparently need an all-purpose boogyman to make sense of the world, but it’s a poor substitute for genuine understanding.


Reuland's use of "right wing ideologue" as a pejorative, emotive attack term is more than indicative of his own ideological predilections.

Let's not pretend otherwise, E.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »

Discovery Institute representatives lied repeatedly and under oath regarding the relationship between "creation science" (creationism) and Intelligent Design (also creationism). Not only did they lose the case big time, their behavior was specifically noted by the Judge in his ruling on the matter. This was a vindication for the plaintiffs and showed just how morally corrupt these fine upstanding Christians really were.


Well, I'm afraid that its your pants that are on fire here. How could they have "lied" about the relationship between "creation science" (a unique feature of protestant fundamentalist religion) and ID (which, in various forms, has long been supported by distinguished scientists and philosophers outside any theistic framework -let along EV fundamentalism - who themselves are believers in evolution) when there is none, save that fundamentalist creationists draw from it for their own uses.

All intelligent design claims is that the universe and organic life (a key feature of the universe) did not and could not have come about through purely mechanistic, blind, random chance processes. The order, symmetry, and high order complexity of the cosmos must have been (as it is mathematically impossible to conceive otherwise) imposed upon whatever existed before the organized, coherent cosmos by intelligent manipulation, ordering, structuring, calibration and tuning of those primal forces/materials.

These basic insights are as far from fundamentalist "Creationsim" as one could wish to go, and are compatible with any number of criticisms of scientisitic Darwinian fundamentalism from a number of perspectives. Creationists can use these insights, of course, but they did not originate them and they are in no way unique to "Creationism."

Were Jeans, Whitehead, and Eddington Protestant fundamentalists? How about Sir Fred Hoyle? How about Michael Denton? Southern Baptists?

Struggle for a intellectually substantive argument (sorry stak) and then get back to me...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy, no one is buying your propaganda. ID is re-branded creationism in an attempt to sneak religion into the classroom.

http://ncse.com/book/export/html/109
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Some Schmo »

Buffalo wrote:Droopy, no one is buying your propaganda.

Some of us don't even bother to read it any more. There's nothing redeeming about it.

It's important to understand the salient points your opposition makes. The problem with Droopy is that he never makes them, so you can just skip him as a source.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Post Reply