Buffalo wrote:It doesn't matter how they appeared - Joseph didn't use the plates.
Sure it matters. We simply don't know if they were used in the process or not. Perhaps Joseph Smith didn't use them but maybe they were essential to the process that made the words appear, that created the ideas into english.
As an example of possibilities let's consider: Moroni himself learned english. He learned the customs and ideas of Joseph Smith' time so he could be better at getting the messages to Joseph Smith via the words appearing to Joseph Smith and he repeating them. But Moroni didn't have the words on the plates memorized. He had to see them. he had to revisit them at times. He had to use the plates.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:It doesn't matter how they appeared - Joseph didn't use the plates.
Sure it matters. We simply don't know if they were used in the process or not. Perhaps Joseph Smith didn't use them but maybe they were essential to the process that made the words appear, that created the ideas into english.
As an example of possibilities let's consider: Moroni himself learned english. He learned the customs and ideas of Joseph Smith' time so he could be better at getting the messages to Joseph Smith via the words appearing to Joseph Smith and he repeating them. But Moroni didn't have the words on the plates memorized. He had to see them. he had to revisit them at times. He had to use the plates.
Again, even in this scenario, there would have been no need for Joseph to ever have the plates. And really, Jesus promised his apostles perfect recall via the Holy Ghost - why wouldn't Moroni have that too?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Do resurrected beings even get pissed off? I would guess something like money changing in a temple might do it, but I question whether a realization of wasted time would do it.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
zeezrom wrote:Do resurrected beings even get pissed off? I would guess something like money changing in a temple might do it, but I question whether a realization of wasted time would do it.
Hey, here's a thought - that angel with the flaming sword? Maybe that was Moroni, just blowing off steam. He didn't intend for Joseph to take him seriously about that polygamy thing. Oops!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
zeezrom wrote:Do resurrected beings even get pissed off? I would guess something like money changing in a temple might do it, but I question whether a realization of wasted time would do it.
How about when the revelation they worked so hard to make happen doesn't get recorded and then can't be found? Oops... so much for common consent and canonization... not really necessary, I guess.
I wonder if there's a comprehensive list of all these blunders anywhere?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Buffalo wrote:Again, even in this scenario, there would have been no need for Joseph to ever have the plates. And really, Jesus promised his apostles perfect recall via the Holy Ghost - why wouldn't Moroni have that too?
He promised perfect recall for each and every word? I don't' know if that was the intent.
But I won't continue down this trail, it was meant as a possible example. There are tons of possibilities. Since you don't know how it all worked, if it worked, then there is not reason to assume the plates wee not necessary.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
stemelbow wrote: He promised perfect recall for each and every word? I don't' know if that was the intent.
But I won't continue down this trail, it was meant as a possible example. There are tons of possibilities. Since you don't know how it all worked, if it worked, then there is not reason to assume the plates wee not necessary.
We know that Joseph didn't need them. Anything else you can come up with is ad hoc.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
And to top it off a good portion of the plates were "sealed". I mean, think about the time and effort that went into producing those plates & they'll never see the light of day.
God is the biggest troll of 'em all. ;)
V/R Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.