Where NDEs and out of body experiences come from

[_Tarski]

People have NDEs while brain dead.

No they don't.
In order that we know that the conscious event took place while the brain was dead we would have to trust the judgement/report of the person who experienced it. In this case the persons brain must give a timestamp to the events in relation to the resto f the events around that time.

But! the one person we cannot trust on this issue is the person whose brain is in severe distress.

The experience didn't really happen while the brain was dead but either just before or just after.
In other words, not only the what and where can be hallucinated, but also the when.
For example, if I wake up and think I was just finishing a dream about a cat, it could well be that the dream occured an hour ago. Sleeping brains do not keep track of time well at all and oxygen deprived brain even less so.


Finally, a brain dead person cannot make a single judgement at all since that's what brains are for.

Doctors and NDE experimenters are terrible at seeing these philosophical and methodological issues and are subject to all sorts of bias and wishful thinking.

[_Quasimodo]

The man did not die, however. A flat line does not equal death. Why would his soul leave his body if he hadn't died? Perhaps the man was semi-conscious and remembered some details from the surgery. Perhaps the surgeon embellished the story. Both many times in magnitude more likely than the alternative.

I don't know if this patient actually had a flat EEG (I don't recall that being mentioned), but sometimes patients with no brain activity can be resuscitated.

I don't know why his "soul" left his body. I don't know enough about how NDE's work to make a guess. I do know that NDE's are not that uncommon in those settings and are generally accepted by medical professionals. Especially those that work with terminal patients who occasionally slip away and are resuscitated.

In open heart surgeries the patient's anesthesia is as low as it can go without actually killing the patient. There was no chance that he was semi-conscious. Even if he was, he would have been draped in such a way that he would not be able to see any of the activity in the room. Which he recounted in great detail.

The story was told to me by both the surgeons that performed the operation. I suppose that it's possible that one surgeon could embellish the story, but I had both telling it at the same time. I knew these guys well (worked with them for many years). I don't think they were embellishing.

One was a believer and the other was a confirmed skeptic up until that incident.

It's hard to find an explanation other than that the patient was having an out of body experience.

[_Mad Viking]

The man did not die, however. A flat line does not equal death. Why would his soul leave his body if he hadn't died? Perhaps the man was semi-conscious and remembered some details from the surgery. Perhaps the surgeon embellished the story. Both many times in magnitude more likely than the alternative.

I don't know if this patient actually had a flat EEG (I don't recall that being mentioned), but sometimes patients with no brain activity can be resuscitated.

I don't know why his "soul" left his body. I don't know enough about how NDE's work to make a guess. I do know that NDE's are not that uncommon in those settings and are generally accepted by medical professionals. Especially those that work with terminal patients who occasionally slip away and are resuscitated.

In open heart surgeries the patient's anesthesia is as low as it can go without actually killing the patient. There was no chance that he was semi-conscious. Even if he was, he would have been draped in such a way that he would not be able to see any of the activity in the room. Which he recounted in great detail.

The story was told to me by both the surgeons that performed the operation. I suppose that it's possible that one surgeon could embellish the story, but I had both telling it at the same time. I knew these guys well (worked with them for many years). I don't think they were embellishing.

One was a believer and the other was a confirmed skeptic up until that incident.

It's hard to find an explanation other than that the patient was having an out of body experience.

This story was related to you by the surgeons and not the individual who had the NDE?

[_Quasimodo]

This story was related to you by the surgeons and not the individual who had the NDE?

Yep. The incident took place before I was working at that hospital. I was just relating the story as it was told to me by the Docs. I understand that it makes it a second hand story, but it's the best one I have.

I don't expect any of you to change your opinion because of this, but stories like these (I've heard a few from reliable sources) are what changed me from atheist to agnostic. I just don't know.

[_Mad Viking]

Yep. The incident took place before I was working at that hospital. I was just relating the story as it was told to me by the Docs. I understand that it makes it a second hand story, but it's the best one I have.

I don't expect any of you to change your opinion because of this, but stories like these (I've heard a few from reliable sources) are what changed me from atheist to agnostic.

Interesting. Let's assume for a moment that these stories are accurate descriptions of an conscience experience of some part of our being (I'm not even sure what that means) outside the body. How did that move you from an atheist to an agnostic?

[_Quasimodo]

Yep. The incident took place before I was working at that hospital. I was just relating the story as it was told to me by the Docs. I understand that it makes it a second hand story, but it's the best one I have.

I don't expect any of you to change your opinion because of this, but stories like these (I've heard a few from reliable sources) are what changed me from atheist to agnostic.

Interesting. Let's assume for a moment that these stories are accurate descriptions of an conscience experience of some part of our being (I'm not even sure what that means) outside the body. How did that move you from an atheist to an agnostic?

Good question!

I had no good reason to doubt the surgeons' story. Knowing them, I was pretty sure that they were not pulling my leg or blowing the incident out of proportion.

The situation they described made it impossible for the patient to have known the details of his surgery without being "out of body".

I used to believe absolutely that there are no "souls" and so no one could leave his /her body.

This story (and some others) forced me to allow the possibility of a soul, spirit, what ever. Allowing that, I have to describe myself as one who doesn't know... agnostic.

[_Mad Viking]

This story (and some others) forced me to allow the possibility of a soul, spirit, what ever. Allowing that, I have to describe myself as one who doesn't know... agnostic.

Ahhh... I misunderstood. I thought you were using the terms "atheist" and "agnostic" in their widely accepted usage. When you use those terms you are limiting their applicability to just the belief or knowledge about some part of our being that can exist outside our bodies and not with regard to the existence of a god? My mistake.

[_Quasimodo]

This story (and some others) forced me to allow the possibility of a soul, spirit, what ever. Allowing that, I have to describe myself as one who doesn't know... agnostic.

Ahhh... I misunderstood. I thought you were using the terms "atheist" and "agnostic" in their widely accepted usage. When you use those terms you are limiting their applicability to just the belief or knowledge about some part of our being that can exist outside our bodies and not with regard to the existence of a god? My mistake.

No mistake on your part, I think. It just seems to me that if one is to allow the possibility of survival beyond death (a soul), then the existence of a God COULD also be a possibility. I said "could" in bold letters because I'm only allowing the possibility. Not that I'm a believer, I really don't know.

I like the Buddha's answer: "I don't know anything about God".

[_Mad Viking]

Ahhh... I misunderstood. I thought you were using the terms "atheist" and "agnostic" in their widely accepted usage. When you use those terms you are limiting their applicability to just the belief or knowledge about some part of our being that can exist outside our bodies and not with regard to the existence of a god? My mistake.

No mistake on your part, I think. It just seems to me that if one is to allow the possibility of survival beyond death (a soul), then the existence of a God COULD also be a possibility. I said "could" in bold letters because I'm only allowing the possibility. Not that I'm a believer, I really don't know.

I like the Buddha's answer: "I don't know anything about God".

I don't know if (a) god(s) exist either. Therefore, I am an agnostic.

I don't have a belief in (a) god(s). Therefore, I am an atheist.

I am both.

Without a pre-existing religious paradigm, I'm not sure how one would make the connection between disembodied existence and the existence of a god.

[_Buffalo]

The man did not die, however. A flat line does not equal death. Why would his soul leave his body if he hadn't died? Perhaps the man was semi-conscious and remembered some details from the surgery. Perhaps the surgeon embellished the story. Both many times in magnitude more likely than the alternative.

I don't know if this patient actually had a flat EEG (I don't recall that being mentioned), but sometimes patients with no brain activity can be resuscitated.

I don't know why his "soul" left his body. I don't know enough about how NDE's work to make a guess. I do know that NDE's are not that uncommon in those settings and are generally accepted by medical professionals. Especially those that work with terminal patients who occasionally slip away and are resuscitated.

In open heart surgeries the patient's anesthesia is as low as it can go without actually killing the patient. There was no chance that he was semi-conscious. Even if he was, he would have been draped in such a way that he would not be able to see any of the activity in the room. Which he recounted in great detail.

The story was told to me by both the surgeons that performed the operation. I suppose that it's possible that one surgeon could embellish the story, but I had both telling it at the same time. I knew these guys well (worked with them for many years). I don't think they were embellishing.

One was a believer and the other was a confirmed skeptic up until that incident.

It's hard to find an explanation other than that the patient was having an out of body experience.

I'm sorry, I still don't find that terribly compelling. First of all, there's no way to independently verify the claim (and it could be a matter of inexact memory, not just falsification). It's possible the guy was still semi-concious enough to hear something of the goings on in the room. Belief here should scale with the evidence.