FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

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_Sethbag
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Sethbag »

sock puppet wrote:With so many GAs having been to law school I am quite surprised the LDS church continues the white-wash tactic. One of the first tactics taught in law school for advocacy is to address with the court and jury the problem facts of your side of the case, and explain why they should yet rule for your side to prevail, before your opponent points out your problem facts in a very damning way. It innoculates the judge and jury against what the opponent will have to say about your problem facts, and it helps you maintain credibility in their eyes. The LDS church would be well-advised, even by the lawyers in their GA ranks, to take that very tactic.


I'm not convinced that this would be good advice. The church isn't really true, and things like the Book of Abraham fiasco are bona fide fruits of this fact. Trying to innoculate people against having their testimony ruined by the Book of Abraham controversy might be successful with some people, and result in others getting curiouser and curiouser and studying themselves right out of the church. It's a calculated risk. The Book of Abraham is so damning I'm not sure they'd be well-advised to be honest about it at all.

Same with Joseph Smith's industrial-scale adultery and his lying about it. Would the church lose more people being honest about this, than they do from people learning about it the way we did? I think they just might.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Thanks for posting this, Kevin. I'm surprised you shelled out the money for this, though I admit that I'm glad you did. I watched the trailer for the DVD that was posted to the ironically named FAIRboard, and I wasn't very impressed, unfortunately. John Gee, I noticed, is beginning to look ever more grotesquely smug, or, perhaps, smugly grotesque. It actually looks as if his forehead is sloping backwards, like his brain is trying desperately to recede from his mouth.

I also noticed that AresOnaPlate has now threatened you with a banning:

Keep posting personal remarks and insults about individuals (which do not help your argument) and see how long your current incarnation will last on this board. Its not like you have a history of good behavior here.

Strike two for arguing with the moderators.


Pretty weak. They must be feeling some major pain in light of your rapid dismantling of their DVD. How long did it take them to produce this (and how much $$$?) and here you come along and torpedo the whole thing in a matter of minutes.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Kevin Graham wrote:I'm more credible than you and your pathetic scholars will ever be. For the simple reason that I have never lied, nor has anyone shown that I have lied about a single thing on anything related to Mormonism. By contrast, I've shown indisputable proof that John Gee is a shameless liar.


You'll never amount to a credible participant in debate on religion when you call virtually every person with whom you disagree a liar. We've had this discussion before. In addition to being an unfocussed and scatered rhetorician, you're posts are just mean-spirited. Time to get a life outside of Mormonism . I recommend
_Dr. Shades
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Yahoo Bot wrote:In addition to being an unfocussed and scatered rhetorician, you're posts are just mean-spirited.

Do you think he spent too much time reading the FARMS Review?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:In addition to being an unfocussed and scatered rhetorician, you're posts are just mean-spirited.

Do you think he spent too much time reading the FARMS Review?

Hey, I've had my issues with Farms Review.

I think any neutral observer reading Kevin's posts, seeing the volume of his posts, understanding the history of his evacuation from multiple forums, his penchant for using sock puppets to evade bannings, his odd practice of discussing at time his personal and family issues, the way he bullies and treats opponents, and such, could only conclude that the fellow has issues and needs help. Not too far from hatersinmyward, in my opinion. I think I am qualified to speak to such given that one of my children is pursuing a degree in abnormal psychology.
_sock puppet
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _sock puppet »

Yahoo Bot wrote:I think I am qualified to speak to such given that one of my children is pursuing a degree in abnormal psychology.

LOL--I think. Right?
_Dr. Shades
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Yahoo Bot wrote:I think any neutral observer reading Kevin's posts, seeing the volume of his posts, understanding the history of his evacuation from multiple forums, his penchant for using sock puppets to evade bannings, his odd practice of discussing at time his personal and family issues, the way he bullies and treats opponents, and such, could only conclude that the fellow has issues and needs help. Not too far from hatersinmyward, in my opinion.

Fine, but what part of his opening post is factually untrue?

I think I am qualified to speak to such given that one of my children is pursuing a degree in abnormal psychology.

Similarly, my stepdaughter is pursuing a degree in political science, so I'm likewise qualified to speak on the topic of political science.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Shulem
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Shulem »

Did FAIR reveal the name of the king of Egypt in Facsimile No. 3 and explain why Anubis was called a slave by his loyal followers?

Did FAIR explain how Joseph Smith was reading the writing contained in the very Facsimile he published?

Excuse me, I need to go barf.

Paul O
_Kevin Graham
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Kevin Graham »

You'll never amount to a credible participant in debate on religion when you call virtually every person with whom you disagree a liar.

As I proved over and over, you're lying on this point and you know it. The number of folks I have called liars can be counted on one hand, and that is very few compared to the number of people I've debated over the years. I can name at least a dozen apologists off the top of my head who I do not regard as liars, nor have i ever implied that they were. But I guess in Robert Crockett's world, Dan Peterson, John Gee and William Schryver are virtually the only people who exist.
We've had this discussion before.

There was no discussion. There was you making the stupid remark, then there was me correcting you and challenging you to back it up, and then there was you disappearing into the night. We know the drill.
In addition to being an unfocussed and scatered rhetorician, you're posts are just mean-spirited. Time to get a life outside of Mormonism . I recommend

There is nothing mean about calling someone dishonest, if in fact they are dishonest. But even if this were true this would mean FAIR and the entire Mormon corporation is the most mean spirited entity on the planet. Anyone who dares to say anything critical of it or its leaders, are simply agents of Satan who know the truth, but fight against it anyway. They're liars. Right Bob?
I think any neutral observer reading Kevin's posts, seeing the volume of his posts, understanding the history of his evacuation from multiple forums

There have been very few neutral observers, and none of whom agree with you. My "evacuation" from "multiple" forums? I threw down this challenge to you in the recent past and you fled the scene, so I'll give you a chance once again to salvage your dignity Mr. Robert Crockett. Please provide examples of the "multiple forums" from which I have been "evacuated." There has been only one, and that is the MAD board. It "evacuates" people on a regular basis, but few are invited to return as I have been. That would seem to set me apart from the majority of those who have been banned without exception. Further, the circumstances in which I was "evacuated," fly in the face of your deceptive caricature. I was "evacuated" for calling our Brian Hauglid on a point he refused to answer at the time. I was extremely cordial and polite, so much so that numerous apologists felt the moderators were singling me out unjustifiably and protested when I was "evacuated." But you weren't around for any of that, so you're ignorant of it all. But hey, don't let that stop you from doing what Mormon apologists do best, which is recreating history to suit their agenda.
his penchant for using sock puppets to evade bannings

This is a flat out lie and you know it. I was banned from MAD five years ago in August, and since that time I probably entered that forum on three different occasions using different monikers. But in each case, I made it perfectly clear who i was. The first time I did this I rentered the forum as dartagnan, which was my moniker while posting at ZLMB. So no, I was hardly trying to shield my identity. Also, my only interest in returning to that forum has almost always been in response to a number of people dragging my name through the mud. It got so bad that the moderators had to implement a rule forbidding anyone to mention my name ever again. So you need to get yrou facts straight counselor. I'm tired of educating you.
his odd practice of discussing at time his personal and family issues

Excuse me? As far as I am concerned, I am among friends with a few pestering enemies. I find nothing "odd" about discussing personal matters with people I consider friends. That you would complain about something so innocuous as this is telling. It shows just how badly you need to complain about me.
the way he bullies and treats opponents

It is impossible to bully anyone on a forum. What bothers you most is the fact that I don't let LDS scholars get away with murder. I hold them accountable, and I am relentless in calling them to the carpet. That upsets you because you know they have no defense and you'd wish I'd just stop drawing attention to their deceptive tactics. Well, too bad.
and such, could only conclude that the fellow has issues and needs help.

Ah, and here we go with the usual slime tactic employed by so many apologists. I must need mental help, right? I mean that must be it. Setting aside the fact that your beloved Daniel Peterson, whose has posted obssessively on these forums, more than I could ever hope to do, it is I who you think has a problem. Well, when I do post, at least I have an argument and at least I back it up with evidence. Dan never debates anything. His arguments are scarce, and whenever he is challenged on any given point, suddenly he dishes out his schedule for the next three months, which conveniently includes all sorts of trips across the country. At least I respond to challenges, and I provide arguments backed with references. You and Dan do neither. All you do is engage in smear tactics. Case in point, your only pur[pose for participating on this thread. You have nothing to say about the topic because you just don't know anything about it. So you have to take up for the home team the only way you know how, which is to throw mud pies at the guy pointing towards your naked emperor.
I think I am qualified to speak to such given that one of my children is pursuing a degree in abnormal psychology.

Oh my, I think I discovered a new sig line. Thanks. by the way, my wife is a psychologist, which by your logic, makes me more qualified than you.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: FAIR's new DVD on Book of Abraham

Post by _Kevin Graham »

As far as the pathetic threat by Ares, I never asked to go back there. I did so out of boredom, more than a week after Nemesis invited me back. There is really no point in trying to debate anyone there because debate can't really exist. They shut down anything that makes an apologist look bad and they are hypersensitive when it comes to their beloved scholars, who apparently are above reproach. Just look at how Ares is having a conniption fit over my post. No one on that forum has the required background knowledge to debate these matters anyway.

Who is going to do it? Wade? (ROFL!) Mike? Will?

Will is afraid to death of me because he knows I know too much about him, what he has said, and he knows I'm always going to be there to hold him accountable. Wade doesn't know how to do anything except dish out a ten page questionnaire while butchering the English language. Mike is only interested in relaying excerpts from FARMS Reviews. So while they complain that I didn't present my review in a "fair and balanced" or scholarly tone, it isn't as if this would have mattered anyway. Chris Smith and Rob Bowman abide by these rules all the time and the result is always the same. They get attacked by a mob of apologists, most of whom know how to do nothing but attack, and after a few pages a mod will finally step in and ban a couple just so they can appear to be "fair." But this they do only after the damage has been done and any chance of civil dialogue has been shot out the window.

Seriously folks, when it is a rule written in stone that your supposed authorities are above reproach, you already lose the debate because it shows just how insecure you are in your own beliefs. As if the mere idea of John Gee lying about something would totally destroy your faith.
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