Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

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_Analytics
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Analytics »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Analytics wrote:Two questions. First, is this a fair representation of the critics standard argument? At best, it's a bizzare way to phrase it. Critics claim that is what Joseph himself believed? Really?

To say it's what Joseph "claimed" would be a less loaded term. But yes, many of us would say he "believed" it, as well.

Interesting. Thanks.

The most bizarre assertion now being made is that there is absolutely no convincing evidence that links the Book of Abraham with "the Hor Book of Breathings."

Just to make sure I have the geography and nomenclature right, here is my understanding. One of the papyri that Joseph Smith purchased is called the Scroll of Hor, which contains at the top the couch vignette, followed by the Book of Breathings. Is that correct? Is there anything else on the Scroll of Hor? If somebody says "The Hor Book of Breathings", are they talking about the version of the Book of Breathings which is on Joseph Smith's specific scroll, or are they talking about the entire scroll, including the couch vignette?

We know from Abraham 1:12 that the purported source of the Book of Abraham is a papyri document that commences with the couch vignette. Doesn't that conclusively link the Scroll of Hor with the Book of Abraham? If so, does it conclusively link the Book of Breathings with the Book of Abraham? It's bizarre that somebody who wishes to be taken seriously denies this clear observation.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_Fifth Columnist
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Fifth Columnist »

I think George Miller (not his real name) is doing some very interesting work in this area. For example, see his post here: http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... 100#314100

The masonic connection to Joseph Smith and early Mormonism explains so much.
_Corpsegrinder
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Corpsegrinder »

My point exactly. The critics ultimately have no proof against. It's like trying to prove or disprove the existence of God in the atheist sense. Neither can be done.


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_Blixa
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Blixa »

Fifth Columnist wrote:I think George Miller (not his real name) is doing some very interesting work in this area. For example, see his post here: http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... 100#314100

The masonic connection to Joseph Smith and early Mormonism explains so much.


Thanks for link, FC! I would have otherwise missed this interesting exchange.

Although I'm very interested in Mormon history, the Book of Abraham discussion hasn't caught my attention since 1968 or 69. That's when my Dad brought home an issue of Dialogue which had several essays on the recent translation of the papyri. That attempts to prove something "correct" about Joseph Smith's translations have persisted since, is perhaps interesting itself, the arguments haven't advanced much that I can see.

However, George Miller's approach does suggest a reason to pay attention and I think it's laid out in an engaging fashion in this post from the thread you linked:

George Miller wrote:
Latterday Skeptic wrote:This kind of in-depth extrapolation disturbs me. If Joseph Smith was really this fabulous, to be so totally consistent (even though the GAEL is simply a "revelatory" document...i.e. has no basis in actual translation), I'm left with having to believe he was more than what I think he is.


If Joseph Smith was "so totally fabulous," then perhaps he would match the correlated model expressed in Sunday School. However, now we can read Egyptian, and we know that Joseph Smith's translation is inaccurate. That ship has sailed, but I am more interested in the fascinating academic question that this further light and knowledge brings to the table. If Joseph wasn't translating the Egyptian, what did he think he was doing.

Largely because of exposure to church rhetoric over the years, Mormons are largely focused on answering questions like: (1) Is the Book of Mormon true? (2) Was Joseph Smith a prophet? and (3) Is the Mormon church true? Frankly, I find these begging question to be boring and unhelpful. I am uninterested if the Book of Abraham is true or false. I am more interested in its genesis and what this tells about Joseph Smith's thoughts and beliefs.

You mention that you are disturbed by a consistent "revelatory" EA and GAEL. One of the things that has come from my research on Joseph Smith is that for Joseph, intellectual curiosity and mental CPU clicks were intertwined DEEPLY with his spiritual revelations. The translation of the papyri for Joseph Smith does not follow a model of of Joseph Smith providing a blank slate onto which God to dictated, the translation required a large amount of mental work of Joseph's part.

Latterday Skeptic wrote:The more people make of Joseph Smith having this document and that book and this and that item was published somewhere nearby, really makes the case for the apologists who start to smirk and say, "yeah, so a modestly educated country bumpkin could really do all of this without divine help?".



I personally hate this stupid characterization of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith's family on his paternal side were highly educated civically involved men. Joseph Smith paternal grandfather and great grandfather were aldermen and post master generals. Smith Sr. was highly educated and taught school along with his farming, coopering and shop keeping activities. Hyrum Smith attended college, and had the economic situation of the family been different, Joseph would have likely also attended. Joseph Smith was no country bumpkin.

Latterday Skeptic wrote:The more complicated scenarios I see about Joseph Smith, the less inclined I am to believe them. I remain open to any possibility, but it disturbs me because these complicated, academic like propositions start to feel like the mental gymnastics of the apologists at some point...defying Occam's razor.



I understand your feelings on this completely. For example, I am a bit troubled by the ever growing "library" of rare books Joseph Smith must have read to come up with his ideas. What I like about my own research, is that two books, one which we KNOW without a doubt Joseph Smith had access to, and other which my research STRONGLY suggest he had access to, explains a large chuck of Joseph Smith's theology. That being said, even non believing scholars who have studied Joseph, ultimately come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith is a VERY complicated person. My research largely bears out this conclusion.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Mad Viking
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Mad Viking »

Book of Breathing text has been undeniably cannonized in the Book of Abraham.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Kevin Graham »

We know from Abraham 1:12 that the purported source of the Book of Abraham is a papyri document that commences with the couch vignette. Doesn't that conclusively link the Scroll of Hor with the Book of Abraham?


Yes.

If so, does it conclusively link the Book of Breathings with the Book of Abraham? It's bizarre that somebody who wishes to be taken seriously denies this clear observation.


That is how the apologetic mind works. Bcspace has deluded himself into thinking the critics are the ones making illicit leaps in logic and ignoring evidence, when in fact the opposite is true. Notice how none of the apologetic diatribes on this matter ever address Abr 1:12. It is as if they think it will just disappear if they ignore it long enough.

In order to save the Book of Abraham, they have to throw the Book of Abraham scripture under the bus.

How pathetic.

There is no reasonable basis for the "missing papyrus" theory. We already know some is missing, but we also know (and this is what apologists don't address) that what was used to translate the Book of Abraham is among the extant portions. People like John Gee and William Schryver have already been caught lying about the "numerous testimonies" about a "long roll." In the same refutation you will see how Nibley lied about the description of the rolls in order to suggest the Book of Abraham was among the "missing" portion. They never once dealt with the thorough refutation provided them, and after years of denial that any rebuttal even existed, FAIR produces a DVD that largely rests on the assumption that this theory's conclusions should be taken for granted without question. It is intellectual dishonesty at its finest, but that pretty much sums up the bulk of LDS apologetics.

You don't get to point out that "some" papyri are missing and then claim plausibility for the idea that the Book of Abraham must have derived from said missing papyri. This is like insisting that because there are planets we don't know about, this gives plausibility for alien life. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Mere assertion doesn't establish dependence and that isn't how plausibility works, which is something bcspace will never understand. But then, I think he knows this, which is why their arguments will never win over the minds of those who are approaching this from an objective perspective. Fresh learners who they consider prospective converts. People who knew close to nothing about this subject beforehand. These people will never, ever be convinced of the idiotic "plausibility" arguments the apologists love to fall back on. FAIR knows that the only people who will buy into this crap are those with such inclinations. Meaning, those who need to believe something, anything, to maintain an already established dogma. These arguments are for struggling members looking for anything they can use to delude themselves further that somehow Joseph Smith really wasn't a false prophet and fraud. It is the same kind of intellectual subterfuge that goes on at closed shop Time Share meetings, where you're pummeled with one perspective relentlessly with no tolerance for other perspectives. The LDS apologists know they stand no chance on an equal platform, which is why they hate open debate, and absolutely refuse to properly represent what the critics have argued in their publications. They know they'll lose every time.
_George Miller
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _George Miller »

Fifth Columnist wrote:I think George Miller (not his real name) is doing some very interesting work in this area. For example, see his post here: http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... 100#314100

The masonic connection to Joseph Smith and early Mormonism explains so much.

Just to make it clear, Chris Smith was the first person to suggest and publish on the approach of dissecting the characters. (In fact the character discussed was first dissected and explained by Chris Smith in his excellent JWHA paper). He deserves the credit with regard to discovering Joseph Smith's methodology. Chris Smith was kind enough to send me a copy of his paper, and without Chris's insights I am not sure I would have fully fleshed out the Masonic connections. As always Chris is a gentleman and a scholar.
_Mad Viking
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _Mad Viking »

Facsimile 2 contains text taken directly from the Breathing Permit of Hor. This move undeniably canonizes Book of Breathings text and ties the Breathing Permit for Hor to text of the Book of Abraham.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
_George Miller
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _George Miller »

Mad Viking wrote:Facsimile 2 contains text taken directly from the Breathing Permit of Hor. This move undeniably canonizes Book of Breathings text and ties the Breathing Permit for Hor to text of the Book of Abraham.

While a relatively minor note, Facsimile 2 was not on the Hor Book of Breathings, nor was it on Hor's mummy. Instead it was likely found with on a mummy named Sheshonk. Not that Joseph Smith realized this was the case as far as I can tell.
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Re: Most Frequent Book of Abraham Assertion

Post by _sock puppet »

George Miller wrote:
Mad Viking wrote:Facsimile 2 contains text taken directly from the Breathing Permit of Hor. This move undeniably canonizes Book of Breathings text and ties the Breathing Permit for Hor to text of the Book of Abraham.

While a relatively minor note, Facsimile 2 was not on the Hor Book of Breathings, nor was it on Hor's mummy. Instead it was likely found with on a mummy named Sheshonk. Not that Joseph Smith realized this was the case as far as I can tell.

From where did JSJr copy hieratic characters with which he 'restored' lucanae in Facsimile 2, albeit upside down hieratics?
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