Drilldown #1: TBMs, details re your spiritual experience

[_Scottie]

Wow, Liz.

That story gave me goosebumps!

When people ask if I believe in an afterlife, these kinds of stories are what keep me from outright disbelieving it.

I heard a similar story about a guy that was in a near death tragedy. He left his body, somehow flew to where his wife was, saw her in a pink polka-dotted dress out in the garden, and then was brought back. If I recall correctly, he was hundreds of miles away and could not possibly have known what she was doing, yet he described it in perfect detail.

However, until something like this happens directly to me, I'll remain skeptical, and that there are forces at work, other than "God", that we just can't understand.

[_Buffalo]

I don't personally buy Liz's story, but out of respect I won't try to dissect it.

[_Scottie]

I don't personally buy Liz's story, but out of respect I won't try to dissect it.

There are many, MANY posters that I would say this about, but Liz isn't one of them.

[_Some Schmo]

I don't personally buy Liz's story, but out of respect I won't try to dissect it.

There are many, MANY posters that I would say this about, but Liz isn't one of them.

Buff, are you saying you don't believe liz had, or how she remembers the experience, or just that you don't believe how she's interpreted it (as supernatural)?

[_sock puppet]

About 20 years ago, my grandmother passed away. She was always very dear to me and an integral part of my life.

My husband and two small children and I were living in Utah at the time. My Grandmother resided in California.

She had a sudden stroke and was admitted into the hospital. She was basically considered "brain dead" and was being kept alive on life support. My Dad and his brothers had the task of making the decision to turn off the machines.

Before Dad called me and told me what was going on, I had a vision. My husband and the girls had gone to the store and I was home alone, catching up on some studying in my bedroom. My grandmother appeared to me. I seriously thought I was losing my mind. I had NEVER experienced anything like this before.

Grandma sat on the bed next to me and spoke to me...carrying on a conversation just like any normal conversation I would have with her. There was a soft light around her, but she looked basically like she had always looked, except calmer...more serene.

She took my hand in hers, and said, "Elizabeth, I have had a stroke. I am going to die. Your father is going to call you, and tell you that they are contemplating turning off life support. I want you to let him know that it's ok. I'm happy. I'll be with Pop (my grandpa), Grandma Mable (my great-grandma), and Grandpa Earl. They're going to keep me very busy from what I understand. I'm going to be doing some missionary work.

Now...about the funeral....I would like you and Todd (my brother) to sing "Line Upon Line"...and I don't want my funeral to be some solemn event. I want it to feel like a missionary farewell because that's really what it is.

Please help comfort your Dad, Archie, Jack, and Pat(my uncles). Poor Pat. He's going to have the hardest time with all of this. I love you. I'm so proud of you, and I'll be looking out for you."

There was more said between us, but that was the gist of it. She was gone.

About 15 minutes later, my Dad called and filled me in on what was happening with Grandma. I told him that I already knew. He was crying. I told him that it was ok to turn off life support. That's what Grandma wants. I told him about the funeral plans.

The funeral was carried out exactly as Grandma wanted...and I have felt her presence from time to time over the years.

Let me emphasize that NO ONE had contacted me regarding anything that had happened with Grandma before she appeared to me.

I was living in a different state. There was no way I could have known what had happened.

I've never written this experience out before, or related it to anyone besides my Dad, my brother, and my husband.

I have never been prone to hallucinations...and...even if I was....how could I hallucinate something that I had no prior knowledge of?

This experience confirmed to me that there is a life beyond this one.

I think there are a lot of unknowns....but I do believe that we will see loved ones who have died again based on this experience.

Thank you, liz, for sharing that. As with the other responders, your recount of that experience has left an impression on me.

Foregive me, but my undergraduate studies were on cognitive psychology. So I have a few questions about the mechanics; please don't answer them if you do not feel comfortable doing so.

At the time your grandmother appeared to you, you were catching up on studying. Do you recall what you were studying?

Your experience had visual, audio (specifically verbal), and tactile components. You saw her, you heard her speak, and you felt her take your hand in hers. In the Book of Mormon, Lehi's Tree of Life vision was described as a dream. You were not asleep, so I would suppose that your experience would not have occurred as a dream. But it might, like a dream, have occurred in the mind's eye, ear, and tactile sensation, that is after all how many religious leaders through time have discussed revelations. Do you know if your physical eyes, ears, and hand were sensing those things, or if it was in your 'mind's eye' so to speak? (I am guessing, you were unable to discern between the two regarding that experience, but perhaps.)

I am not sure why you chose this time and this place to share this experience with us. It is your pearl, after all. But as long as you've been online re Mormon issues, I suppose there are multiple factors in your backstory that have come into play.

I hope you see your grandmother again.

[_Buffalo]

Buff, are you saying you don't believe liz had, or how she remembers the experience, or just that you don't believe how she's interpreted it (as supernatural)?

It could be any of those - all of which would be many times in magnitude more probable than the face value supernatural story. I'm not trying to call her a liar, if that's what you're asking. Even though I don't know her personally (or anyone here personally) and can't vouch for that, even taking dishonesty off the table (which I think is reasonable to do), there are many other more reasonable explanations than "ghosts."

[_Some Schmo]

Buff, are you saying you don't believe liz had, or how she remembers the experience, or just that you don't believe how she's interpreted it (as supernatural)?

It could be any of those - all of which would be many times in magnitude more probable than the face value supernatural story. I'm not trying to call her a liar, if that's what you're asking. Even though I don't know her personally (or anyone here personally) and can't vouch for that, even taking dishonesty off the table (which I think is reasonable to do), there are many other more reasonable explanations than "ghosts."

I guess I was asking in a roundabout way if you thought she was lying about this. Obviously, I don't know for certain the answer to that question, but I do believe she believes it. The story doesn't at all strike me as insincere, nor does liz herself.

And clearly, I agree that there are better explanations than supernatural ones, but as I've said many times before, it's not the experiences I'm generally skeptical of, just the interpretations.

[_Buffalo]

I guess I was asking in a roundabout way if you thought she was lying about this. Obviously, I don't know for certain the answer to that question, but I do believe she believes it. The story doesn't at all strike me as insincere, nor does liz herself.

And clearly, I agree that there are better explanations than supernatural ones, but as I've said many times before, it's not the experiences I'm generally skeptical of, just the interpretations.

I agree that it seems likely she sincerely believes the story she shared.

[_harmony]

And you wonder why people often won't share these types of experiences on this board.

Good grief.

[_Yoda]

Liz, I think your experience is amazing and touching and I don't doubt that you experienced it. I'm not sure that it should be interpreted as affirming Mormonism, however, since many people from many faiths have similar experiences and interpret them as affirming their faith.

I've had some powerful spiritual experiences. I always viewed them as 100% reliable ... until I realized that Joseph Smith and other religious leaders (Wayne Bent) used these experiences to bed young girls. It kind of took the sheen off the whole thing at that point.

I still have spiritual experiences, but I am much less certain about how to interpret them. Usually I interpret them as simply making me feel better with nothing more. I definitely don't think they are a reliable indicator of some cosmic, absolute truth.

Actually, I don't count it as an experience affirming Mormonism, but more as an experience of affirming that there is some type of life after this one. I don't think that any of us know exactly what will happen in that life...it just exists.

I really appreciate everyone's respectful reception of my account.

Sock Puppet, in answer to your questions...I was a student at BYU at the time. I was studying for a Music Theory test.

I honestly don't know if what I saw and felt was in my mind's eye or not. It certainly seemed very real at the time. The only part that gave me pause to wonder if it had been an experience in my mind's eye was when I looked around and she was suddenly just gone.

However, I had no prior knowledge of my grandmother being in the hospital or having a stroke before the phone call I received from my Dad, which happened shortly after the experience with my grandmother. That is precisely why I refer to it as a vision. I am not really sure type of "state" I saw what I saw...I just know that it was real to me, and that I wasn't asleep.