Is Mormoni's promise testable?

[_Fence Sitter]

We seem to be forgetting an important factor in this type of test. Some how we have to account for the Givensburg uncertainty principle which states that God has intentionally built in non reproducible results on anything designed to test him.

[_DarkHelmet]

These are all good tests, and it reminds me of Lucy Harris. She was the original Myth Buster of Mormonism. Her conclusion - Busted.

[_stemelbow]

It sounds like this test is set up to give positive results to those who want to believe, for some reason. Would you agree with that?

yes. A hope to believe is a part of it.

I reject out of hand any notion of a God who sees it as a virtue in his subjects that they accept and believe things about him on insufficient evidence.

Good. But that's not how it works for me. The evidence I've received, for instance, is sufficient.

Such a notion of God is a notion for dupes, and such are ripe for harvesting by charlatans, as history has demonstrated over and over.

Fine consider believers, duped and idiots. Afterall, while it seems logical to your mind that they are all dupes, it probably means your judgment of them is true because its coming from you. THere's no room to think they're beliefs are genuine. they are just duped.

I even more firmly reject any notion of a God who sees it as a virtue for people to believe not just on insufficient evidence, but despite evidence to the contrary. This is so indistinguishable from wishful thinking that such a God would be setting the unreasonably credulous up for success at the expense of the careful and reasonable. What kind of God is that?

Don't fret. God's aware of your concerns and He'll do His best to find ways to influence you for good anyway. just be open tto the idea that your instincts might not be only you--particularly when you're instincts favor a love one another and let's see what I can do to help others type of notion. I think in the end, you'll find things will work out far better than you're able to see.

[_Themis]

He has better things to do than help those who don't want His help. He's placed in you, for your own benefit, Buffalo, a universal spirit that is designed to lead you down your own path of truth finding. If you don't buy into the "you can pray to Him and find out" thing, then perhaps He has other designs for you--and no I'm not saying He hopes you go to hell or whatever.

I do believe Buffalo was for most of his life a believing active member. Would it not be more likely that during this time he wanted very much help from God? Do you think that he may have prayed with real desire and intent to God, and in particular Moroni's promise?

[_Sethbag]

Stem, here's the problem. You could not possibly deny that there are plenty of people who are taught things by bona fide charlatans, and use a epistemological process very similar if not identical to the Moroni promise, come to the conclusion that God has verified the truth of whatever it is to them, and end up duped by people, forking out their money, being obedient to people who were just usurping power over them. You cannot possibly deny this. It's happened over and over and over throughout all of recorded history.

I'm not saying everyone who follows this sort of process is a dupe. I'm saying at least most people in the world who think God has confirmed their beliefs were in fact duped. "At least most people" to me is a quantity which approaches, and likely hits, 100%, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. However, your argument would have to go something like this: I grant that many if not most people in the world who feel God has confirmed their beliefs were duped. I, however, am an exception to this.

Does it really make sense to you that God would rely on a process which any rational and informed person would recognize has, at least most of the time, been used by human beings to dupe other human beings? Would God really require us to know that the process we were being asked to use was so unreliable that most people who follow it end up forking over money and obedience to people who have no legitimate right to it, and who weren't telling the truth? Again, an overly credulous person might say hey, sure, why not? But would a rational, careful, judicious, conscientious person be expected to accede to something like this?

Why does your God set the informed people up for failure? Why do the overly credulous inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, while the careful get shoved over to the wrong side with all the tares and goats?

[_Themis]

One of the things I've always considered interesting about Moroni's promise is the starting assumption that there is a external being that will give positive answers when petitioned in prayer. Ignoring all the logical fallacies and circular reasoning of the promise itself why can't we simply test the initial premise?

It's all about looking for any positive feeling, thought, emotion, during or at any time after the prayer. It may happen well after, and you just have to see that it is an answer to your prayer that the church is true. If you don't get a positive answer you are not doing it right.

[_stemelbow]

Stem, here's the problem. You could not possibly deny that there are plenty of people who are taught things by bona fide charlatans, and use a epistemological process very similar if not identical to the Moroni promise, come to the conclusion that God has verified the truth of whatever it is to them, and end up duped by people, forking out their money, being obedient to people who were just usurping power over them. You cannot possibly deny this. It's happened over and over and over throughout all of recorded history.

I'm not saying everyone who follows this sort of process is a dupe. I'm saying at least most people in the world who think God has confirmed their beliefs were in fact duped. "At least most people" to me is a quantity which approaches, and likely hits, 100%, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. However, your argument would have to go something like this: I grant that many if not most people in the world who feel God has confirmed their beliefs were duped. I, however, am an exception to this.

No it wouldn't. I can easily grant that most spiritual experiences people have indeed occurred. And most of them got out of it what was intended.

Does it really make sense to you that God would rely on a process which any rational and informed person would recognize has, at least most of the time, been used by human beings to dupe other human beings? Would God really require us to know that the process we were being asked to use was so unreliable that most people who follow it end up forking over money and obedience to people who have no legitimate right to it, and who weren't telling the truth? Again, an overly credulous person might say hey, sure, why not? But would a rational, careful, judicious, conscientious person be expected to accede to something like this?

This is all very loaded. You seem to assume that most people who rely on spiritual experience as their guide are duped out of the money for some nefarious end. I don’t see why I should buy that that is the case.

Why does your God set the informed people up for failure?

Again, that assumes those that are LDS aren’t informed. I don’t buy that at all.

Why do the overly credulous inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, while the careful get shoved over to the wrong side with all the tares and goats?

Whose to say any one of you nonbelievers can’t find themselves exalted in the end? I’m not.

[_Buffalo]

Exactly.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

God has better things to do than help people make informed decisions about him.

Or as is probably more accurate. He has better things to do than help those who don't want His help. He's placed in you, for your own benefit, Buffalo, a universal spirit that is designed to lead you down your own path of truth finding. If you don't buy into the "you can pray to Him and find out" thing, then perhaps He has other designs for you--and no I'm not saying He hopes you go to hell or whatever. You could, afterall, end up being exalted and me end up in a SoP. Whose to say otherwise? He'll lead you as He knows best. You may not even believe in Him throughout your life, but He still cares and wants the best.

That's the thing, Stem - if you want to make an informed decision, you need to test whether the "pray to find out if Mormonism is true" test is actually reliable. There's no way to know without testing it.

[Guest]

Well we are commanded to live by faith. he's not about to play games just because some people are suspicious of Him. Ultimately that's not His take on how to best operate for the benefit of mankind.

Seeking the truth about Ultimate Reality is not a game. If there truly is a God, then our eternal salvation depends on it. He should applaud efforts to apply scientific standards to the question, not oppose them.

[_Drifting]

The testing of Moroni's promise takes place week in and week out. Large numbers of people are exposed to the contents of the Book of Mormon but God chooses to only manifest the truth of it to a very small minority each year.

If it's a numbers game, God's losing - perhaps he should have trusted someone other than Moroni to come up with the entrance exam test...