Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

[_Droopy]

Joseph Smith:

1) Advocated central ownership of all private property
2) Practiced wife swapping/swinging lifestyle
3) Regularly dosed the sacramental wine with hallucinogens.

Man, he was born in the wrong era.

Buffalo, this is an attempt at a serious conversation. If you cannot, and all my experience with you indicates that you indeed, cannot, engage in an intellectual serious dialogue, please leave the thread to those of us who can.

This is why I posted it here, in the Celestial room. Please take your High School level ad hominem posturing somewhere else

[_Buffalo]

Joseph Smith:

1) Advocated central ownership of all private property
2) Practiced wife swapping/swinging lifestyle
3) Regularly dosed the sacramental wine with hallucinogens.

Man, he was born in the wrong era.

Buffalo, this is an attempt at a serious conversation. If you cannot, and all my experience with you indicates that you indeed, cannot, engage in an intellectual serious dialogue, please leave the thread to those of us who can.

This is why I posted it here, in the Celestial room. Please take your High School level ad hominem posturing somewhere else

Everything I posted was factual. You are out of tune with the oracles of Jehovah.

[_Morley]

....
There is no doctrine of economic class equalization or any attempt at the construction of a classless society in LDS doctrine. The vast poles of wealth disparity, however, will be substantially narrowed. There will be no poor among the Saints in a fully functioning Zion community, nor vast concentrations of wealth in single individuals as presently obtains.

How will this be done without redistribution? I'm genuinely curious.

One interesting aspect of this that I've pointed out in passing in years past when this issue has come up, is that, if we take the assertion that there will be "no poor among" the Zion communities in operation in the Latter Days, the implication here is that Large quantities of wealth are being created in these communities such that both adequate work (productive economic activity) and supplies for the welfare system (the Bishop's storehouse) are present such that poverty is essentially eradicated. This implies a vibrant, growth oriented economic system, which fundamentally precludes any kind of socialistic economic system from consideration.

It would also appear to imply, based upon what we know of the principles of economics and gospel teaching, a limited, decentralized government with only minimal regulatory/mediating influence in the Zion economy.

It also implies the virtual absence of fraud, theft, general dishonesty, and the profound corruptions of economic incentives and market forces introduced by institutions such as unions and the "crony capitalism" of interventionist government and its political class as it picks winners and losers within the private sector and corrupts private sector actors who find it more lucrative to thrive on quid pro quo relationships with government than to compete in a free market in serving the desires of a community's citizens.

So, you're basically saying that you have no idea how it'll be done.

[_Melchett]

What about Universal Healthcare? Isn't this that could be embraced? After all, it is shown in the Gospels that the sick should be cared for.

[_Droopy]

....
There is no doctrine of economic class equalization or any attempt at the construction of a classless society in LDS doctrine. The vast poles of wealth disparity, however, will be substantially narrowed. There will be no poor among the Saints in a fully functioning Zion community, nor vast concentrations of wealth in single individuals as presently obtains.

How will this be done without redistribution? I'm genuinely curious.

It will be accomplished by the voluntary contributing, at differing rates, of all excess income above the needs and wants of individuals and individual families, based upon their individual circumstances, to the Bishop's storehouse.

I'm not saying that there will be no distribution of wealth from producers to those who require assistance (I tend to avoid the term "redistribution" because of the unexamined assumptions it carries). That already occurs in the Church welfare system. What I am saying is that the UO will be:

1. Fundamentally free market in orientation - much more than at present

2. Individual responsibility oriented in nature, not collectivist.

3. Property rights oriented. While all property will, at that time, be understood to belong to the Lord (not to the community) in actual practice all personal property deeded to the Church will be transferred back to the individual as a private stewardship to improve and expand through productive economic activity.

4. The UO is not an attempt to literally equalize income or material condition among its members.

[_subgenius]

1. Philosophy/ideology. Central propositions and beliefs about the human condition, human nature, the purpose and meaning of life, and the proper role, scope, and prerogatives of the state.

free agency seems to be the obvious

2. Policy. Actual policies, initiatives, and laws coming from the Left that you believe can be harmonized with gospel principles.

You mean like stop the war? or public education? environmental policy?
All things socialist likely harmonize with GP if you consider the leftist doctrine composed by Robert Owen, Charles Fourier, or Duc de Saint-Simon.

[_Droopy]

Everything I posted was factual. You are out of tune with the oracles of Jehovah.

Yes, Buffalo.

Now, get out of the thread.

[_Droopy]

....
There is no doctrine of economic class equalization or any attempt at the construction of a classless society in LDS doctrine. The vast poles of wealth disparity, however, will be substantially narrowed. There will be no poor among the Saints in a fully functioning Zion community, nor vast concentrations of wealth in single individuals as presently obtains.

How will this be done without redistribution? I'm genuinely curious.

One interesting aspect of this that I've pointed out in passing in years past when this issue has come up, is that, if we take the assertion that there will be "no poor among" the Zion communities in operation in the Latter Days, the implication here is that Large quantities of wealth are being created in these communities such that both adequate work (productive economic activity) and supplies for the welfare system (the Bishop's storehouse) are present such that poverty is essentially eradicated. This implies a vibrant, growth oriented economic system, which fundamentally precludes any kind of socialistic economic system from consideration.

It would also appear to imply, based upon what we know of the principles of economics and gospel teaching, a limited, decentralized government with only minimal regulatory/mediating influence in the Zion economy.

It also implies the virtual absence of fraud, theft, general dishonesty, and the profound corruptions of economic incentives and market forces introduced by institutions such as unions and the "crony capitalism" of interventionist government and its political class as it picks winners and losers within the private sector and corrupts private sector actors who find it more lucrative to thrive on quid pro quo relationships with government than to compete in a free market in serving the desires of a community's citizens.

So, you're basically saying that you have no idea how it'll be done.

We have the basic concepts from the D&C and some clarifications by the 20th century Brethren, but few details regarding the UO understood to be coming in the future. So no, I don't know precisely, nor does anyone else, which is why David Bokovoy fell down so hard on this very issue. Lot's of starry eyed theory, but no practical details.

The laws and principles of economics, a study of history and economic history, tell us basically what works and what doesn't, in the economic and political realm, and the gospel doctrines we do know tell us something about the elements of human relations necessary to positive and righteous lives and a viable social order. All of that precludes socialism as an option, and any kind of command and control, centrally mediated economic order. We have long history and experience regarding what kind of society and human being tends to generated through following these principles as well.

[_Droopy]

What about Universal Healthcare? Isn't this that could be embraced? After all, it is shown in the Gospels that the sick should be cared for.

1. The gospel's teach the sick should be cared for by the state? References?

2. A cursory study of the Canadian and especially the British health care systems will demonstrate quite clearly that many of the sick, in a socialized system, are not well cared for at all, when they are cared for at all. What we do know thus far, regarding universal health care systems, is that they create the very economic conditions that render anything approaching universal care out of the question.

[_Buffalo]

Everything I posted was factual. You are out of tune with the oracles of Jehovah.

Yes, Buffalo.

Now, get out of the thread.

Jesus would have been at home among the 60s radical leftists as well. He even looked the part. :)