Fence Sitter wrote: Why Me I do not understand the distinction you are trying to make here. What is the difference between "face in the hat" and "drawing it closely around his face to exclude light"?
Give it a test. If I put a cowboy type hat close to my face, it will not be in the hat. I would need to breathe and the scribe would need to hear what I said. So, I don't think that the head was in the hat. Maybe it was close to the hat, but definitely not in the hat.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
zeezrom wrote: Here is what the church should do: teach youngsters that inspiration can come to us in ways other than still small voices in our minds and comfortable feelings. They should teach our children that God can also speak to us through tangible ways like words on rocks and stuff.
Without the urim and thummin the plates would never had been translated. No still voice at all was necessary. Joseph never gave details of the process itself. But what we do have our statements from others about how this process was done, including Richards where oliver told him how it was done. No head in the hat.
Why me, what is your understanding of what the Urim & Thummin were and how extensively we're they used in the translation of the Book of Mormon now in circulation?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
You know what happened to me when I first learned about the rocks in the hat thing? It immediately distanced Joseph Smith Jr. from all the other Mormon prophets. Suddenly, Joseph became this guy that opperated on a totally different wavelength than everyone else. The other prophets learned by "hearing the word in their heart" so to speak. This was, in fact, the way I supposed all prophets worked in recent history.
If Joseph looked at the gold plates and read the English words, he was simply listening to the still, small voice in his mind and responding. I could totally get that. Reading words on a rock in the darkness of a hat? WTH?
Here is what the church should do: teach youngsters that inspiration can come to us in ways other than still small voices in our minds and comfortable feelings. They should teach our children that God can also speak to us through tangible ways like words on rocks and stuff.
I think you touch on a good point, Zee. If we accept the seer stone as legit, then what happened to the stone? Where is Tom Monson's stone? Why isn't he getting us some cool stuff from his stone?
It also seems a little hokey. A magic rock in a hat. What's next, will he pull a rabbit out of the hat? Will he pour a picture of water in the hat and then show us there is no water in it? Magic hats and rocks are what magicians use.
I thought it was shocking, and an anti-Mormon lie. When I found out it was the truth I was very, very disappointed.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
So what's up with D&C 6:25-28, and all the "cause it to burn in your heart if right … etc." stuff that comes from the Oliver Cowdery's short time/attempt at translation?
Was he handed the hat/rock or the plates?
25 And, behold, I grant unto you a gift, if you desire of me, to atranslate, even as my servant Joseph. 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that there are arecords which contain much of my gospel, which have been kept back because of the bwickedness of the people; 27 And now I command you, that if you have good desires—a desire to lay up atreasures for yourself in heaven—then shall you assist in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my bscriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity. 28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the akeys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three bwitnesses shall every word be established.
Fence Sitter wrote: Why Me I do not understand the distinction you are trying to make here. What is the difference between "face in the hat" and "drawing it closely around his face to exclude light"?
Give it a test. If I put a cowboy type hat close to my face, it will not be in the hat. I would need to breathe and the scribe would need to hear what I said. So, I don't think that the head was in the hat. Maybe it was close to the hat, but definitely not in the hat.
How does one exclude light with out putting the face into the hat? Hats were not airtight and one can both breathe and talk through a hat. The scribe was sitting with in a few feet of him and would easily hear him. That is even assuming the hat was large enough to cover his mouth. You are also assuming he he would have to leave his face in the hat to talk. He could just lift up his head and repeat what he had just seen. In order for the light to be excluded his face would have to cover the hat. Even if what you say is correct his face would have to be so close to the hat as to make your distinction irrelevant. This distinction you are attempting is silly from any perspective. I am not sure why you would go to such lengths to mitigate the face in the hat story that you would try and change it to the face just above the brim of the hat story. This is a distinction with out a difference.
Additionally you omit the numerous other first hand accounts that agree with the face in the hat description like Emma's, the Whitmers, and Issac Hale. You seem to put so much store in these same people when it comes to defending Joseph Smith Jr but conveniently forget about them when they cast Joseph Smith Jr in a light you do not like.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
RockSlider wrote:So what's up with D&C 6:25-28, and all the "cause it to burn in your heart if right … etc." stuff that comes from the Oliver Cowdery's short time/attempt at translation? Was he handed the hat/rock or the plates?
25 And, behold, I grant unto you a gift, if you desire of me, to translate, even as my servant Joseph. 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that there are records which contain much of my gospel, which have been kept back because of the wickedness of the people; 27 And now I command you, that if you have good desires—a desire to lay up treasures for yourself in heaven—then shall you assist in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity. 28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I would expect his attempt to translate was by use of his magic sprout.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
What's the point of the plates at all (with the angel and the hole in the ground, the running from Satan while carrying the plates, the witnesses, the cloth, etc) if they were not necessary for the book... if all Joseph needed was a hat and a rock, the plates are reduced to being just props for Joseph's theater performances.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Fence Sitter wrote:you omit the numerous other first hand accounts that agree with the face in the hat description like Emma's, the Whitmers, and Issac Hale. You seem to put so much store in these same people when it comes to defending Joseph Smith Jr but conveniently forget about them when they cast Joseph Smith Jr in a light you do not like.
That is an inconsistency of Mormonism that why me buys 'hook, line and sinker'.
Drifting wrote: Why me, what is your understanding of what the Urim & Thummin were and how extensively we're they used in the translation of the Book of Mormon now in circulation?
It was just mentioned today in sunday school. Whenever I hear an explanation of the translation process, there is the urim and thummin or seer stones. For example this is the explanation on LDS.org
An ancient instrument or tool prepared by God and used by Joseph Smith to aid in the translation of the Book of Mormon. God provided a Urim and Thummim to His prophets in ancient times (see Exodus 28:30; 1 Samuel 28:6; Ezra 2:63).
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith