Evidence and the Book of Abraham

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _DrW »

ldsfaqs wrote:These are just "starter" evidences, hardly exhaustive of the body of evidence for it.
You need to study the scholarship yourself if you want to know more of the actual truth instead of the anti-mormon ignoring of it:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraha ... _antiquity

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/Book of Abraham.shtml

ldsfaqs,

Thanks for the "references". I did study them. They in no way represent scholarship.

The "references" consist of a couple of coincidences that, at best, could tenuously link a couple of sentences out of the Book of Abraham to the Joseph Smith papyri. One or two sentences out of 11 pages is not much of a match, is it?

What if someone gave you an 11 page report and could verfiy only two sentences of its content? Would you bet your career or your life on the total contents of the 11 page report?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_ldsfaqs
_Emeritus
Posts: 7953
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Ya..... And like ANYTHING you idiots produce is equivalent to actual scholarship.

FACTS are scholarship. There have been many evidences found verifying the Book of Abraham.
You all ignoring and not knowing them is not the same as them not existing.
Egyptologists for years said this or that translation of the Facsimiles alone by Joseph were false, yet several historical examples of the EXACT same interpretation has been found from Ancient Egypt, non-mainstream Egyptian, thus Joseph has been shown right. Then you have all the content of the Book of Abraham, in which a lot of it has been verified as ancient, legit, etc.

Further, I'm a former anti-mormon who left the Church. Do you guys REALLY think you impress me or anyone else with your judgments? You are jokes..... You wave the hand, and think you're more intelligent.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _Darth J »

Okay, Ldsfaqs has surrendered the issue.

Is there anyone else who wants to address the OP?

Alternatively, Ldsfags, how do you feel about the anachronisms in the Book of Abraham? What about God personally revealing mistaken 19th-century notions about astrophysics to Abraham? Or false history (the Egyptians took their name from "Egyptus" and were descendants from Ham of Noah's ark fame)?
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _Drifting »

brade wrote:Maybe I should change the question a bit. What is the best available evidence that the text of the Book of Abraham is ancient?


Ooooh, I can answer this.

Your testimony linked with a warm feeling in your bosom.
You read the Book of Abraham with a desire to know it's true, pray earnestly for God to confirm that it is true via the Holy Ghost and when you get a warm feeling in your bosom then BINGO! There's your evidence.

In all seriousness - what I have said above IS the best available evidence that the text of the Book of Abraham is ancient...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _Drifting »

ldsfaqs wrote:
FACTS are scholarship. There have been many evidences found verifying the Book of Abraham.
You all ignoring and not knowing them is not the same as them not existing.
Egyptologists for years said this or that translation of the Facsimiles alone by Joseph were false, yet several historical examples of the EXACT same interpretation has been found from Ancient Egypt, non-mainstream Egyptian, thus Joseph has been shown right. Then you have all the content of the Book of Abraham, in which a lot of it has been verified as ancient, legit, etc.


You mean this...

Evidence for the antiquity of Joseph's Book of Abraham

There is evidence from antiquity—both in the Abrahamic tradition and in the Jewish recontextualization of Egyptian vignettes and dramas—which lend support to the claim that Joseph translated (albeit by unconventional means) the Book of Abraham from an authentic ancient source.

While Book of Abraham "translations" and "restorations" of the damaged vignettes do not seem to square with the translations of non-LDS Egyptologists, there are several instances when Joseph did get some of the details correct. This is no small thing considering that neither Joseph, nor any one to whom he had access, could translate Egyptian.


Considering Joseph was a Prophet of God in direct inspired contact with Him for the translation wouldn't you expect Joseph to get slightly more than 'some of the details correct'?

ldsfaqs said..

Then you have all the content of the Book of Abraham, in which a lot of it has been verified as ancient, legit, etc.


Okay ldsfaqs, then you will have no problem providing 'a lot' of examples from the Book of Abraham that have been 'verified as ancient' and 'legit'.
Over to you for these examples...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_brade
_Emeritus
Posts: 875
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:35 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _brade »

ldsfaqs wrote:These are just "starter" evidences, hardly exhaustive of the body of evidence for it.
You need to study the scholarship yourself if you want to know more of the actual truth instead of the anti-mormon ignoring of it:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraha ... _antiquity

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/Book of Abraham.shtml


Ok, I'll start.

1. The Sons of Horus as representing the earth in its four quarters.

Apparently Joseph Smith got right that those four characters represent the four quarters of the earth in his Explanation of Facsimile No. 2. He did not identify them as the Sons of Horus. The fair article cites Michael D. Rhodes, "The Joseph Smith Hypocephalus...Twenty Years Later." Rhodes references Bonnet, Reallexikon, 315-16; LdÄ 5:53.

Image
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _sock puppet »

brade wrote:Maybe I should change the question a bit. What is the best available evidence that the text of the Book of Abraham is ancient?

There is credible evidence that will let you date that text back to 1842-1835. Is that far enough back to be 'ancient'?
_Daheshist
_Emeritus
Posts: 702
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _Daheshist »

Joseph Smith identied the Four Sons of Horus as the gods Michrah, Libna, Elkanah, and the other i forget, representing the four compass points. They do mean the four compass points. Was this divine inspiration, or lucky guess, or reason?

Well, if it was divine inspiration, why did he identify the goddess Ma'at with Pharoah? Why did he get everything else wrong? Except he identified Min with God. Again, some guy on a throne, he's probably going to represent God. In the original, by the way, Min had a huge erection. You can still see it in
every Pearl of Great Price that the Church prints, although in there it looks more like an arm. But it ain't his arm.

I tried for many years some "explain-away" for the Book of Abraham. Nothing worked. The "lost papyrus theory" does not work. The "memnotic device" does not work. The only thing that "works" is that either Joseph Smith lied completely, or he really thought he had Abraham's writings, and he was a fantasist.

Daheshism teaches that Mormons have nothing to fear, because we are all judged "solely" by our "works" (actions toward other sentient beings). Absolutely nothing else. Not what we believe, or disbelieve. Not what creed or council we must accept. Not what human leaders we follow, or not. The Mormon, the Moonie, the Muslim, the Mennonite, and the Methodist, will ALL be judged by the same Law: Do unto others, as ye would have them do unto you. If only Mormons "lived" by that Law!




brade wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:These are just "starter" evidences, hardly exhaustive of the body of evidence for it.
You need to study the scholarship yourself if you want to know more of the actual truth instead of the anti-mormon ignoring of it:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraha ... _antiquity

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/Book of Abraham.shtml


Ok, I'll start.

1. The Sons of Horus as representing the earth in its four quarters.

Apparently Joseph Smith got right that those four characters represent the four quarters of the earth in his Explanation of Facsimile No. 2. He did not identify them as the Sons of Horus. The fair article cites Michael D. Rhodes, "The Joseph Smith Hypocephalus...Twenty Years Later." Rhodes references Bonnet, Reallexikon, 315-16; LdÄ 5:53.

Image
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _Drifting »

Daheshist wrote:The Mormon, the Moonie, the Muslim, the Mennonite, and the Methodist, will ALL be judged by the same Law: Do unto others, as ye would have them do unto you.


If God exists (I'm 50/50 on that currently) then I believe this is exactly what He/She/They will judge people on.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Evidence and the Book of Abraham

Post by _consiglieri »

brade wrote:Setting aside spiritual experience, what is the best available evidence that the source of the Book of Abraham was the ancient Egyptian writings obtained from Michael Chandler?


You have brought up the four sons of Horus being identified as the four quarters of the earth.

Joseph also appears to have been on the right track in identifying the crocodile in Fac. No. 1 as the god of Pharoah.

Also, Fac. No. 1 appears to be used as an illustration of the moment in Abraham Chapter One when Abraham prays to God for deliverance from the priest who is about to sacrifice him and the angel of the Lord's Presence comes down to rescue him.

The reason this is interesting to me is that the figure identified as Abraham on the lion couch has one foot forward and his arms raised (a detail I understand to be unique to this vignette).

This tends to look funny to western eyes, but an ancient Egyptian would likely have understood what was being represented.

The commonly understood interpretation for the figure of a man with his arms raised and one foot forward is "prayer," "supplication," "praise" or "worship."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Post Reply