Fraud

[_Drifting]

Is there any eye witness testimony that matches the visual depiction of the translation process that is used in Chuch materials? Any at all?

[_sock puppet]

Is there any eye witness testimony that matches the visual depiction of the translation process that is used in Chuch materials? Any at all?

If there is, none of the defenders that have posted or merely viewed this other current thread has been able to identify or refer to such other eye witness testimony. I think if there were such a known eye witness account, the NOMs and even the critics would have pointed it out for the sake of historical accuracy.

[_Willy Law]

He later said

"I have sometimes had seasons of skepticism, in which I did seriously wonder whether the Prophet and I were men in our sober senses, when he would be translating from plates, through 'the Urim and Thummim', and the plates not be in sight at all."

I've not heard that one before.
Where is it from?

It was quoted in Rough Stone Rolling. Footnotes say it is from a pamphlet printed in 1839 called Oliver Cowdery's Defense.

[_sock puppet]

He later said

"I have sometimes had seasons of skepticism, in which I did seriously wonder whether the Prophet and I were men in our sober senses, when he would be translating from plates, through 'the Urim and Thummim', and the plates not be in sight at all."

I've not heard that one before.
Where is it from?

It was quoted in Rough Stone Rolling. Footnotes say it is from a pamphlet printed in 1839 called Oliver Cowdery's Defense.

Do we know whether Oliver Cowdery conflated the magic seer stone JSJr took from digging the well at the Chase farm to be the 'urim and thummim' as many Mormon authorities at the time and since then did?

For example, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is currently in the possession of the Church.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56), 3: 225.

[Guest]

I have always been confused about the translation method because the teachings on the process are so vague. I actually thought that the seer stones and the Urim and Thumum were the same thing for a long time. The terms were often used interchangeably.

Do we know that the "head in the hat" method was always used?

I am wondering if I am suffering from a trick of memory when I think head in hat with words glowing on a rock was the method I was taught about growing up. Well that with another idea of studying the matter out as a general procedure.

I later thought the hat and glowing words may have been only occasional and for show to be a source of faith promoting stories. His head in a hat? must be a miracle.

Studying might be more honest than some are insisting. Though it may not have been gold plates being studied.

[_Willy Law]

Do we know whether Oliver Cowdery conflated the magic seer stone JSJr took from digging the well at the Chase farm to be the 'urim and thummim' as many Mormon authorities at the time and since then did?

For example, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is currently in the possession of the Church.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56), 3: 225.

Stealing from Mormonthink, the term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until 1833 and most certainly became used to described the peep stone.

[_harmony]

Injury? Sure, this is all part of an effort by the Brethren/COB to get the hearers, members and investigators alike, to pay tithing--and many do, and pay handsomely. Particularly those that pay on their gross, or even net--not just the amount that they do not spend (the apologetic/Pharisaical hair-split).

Well then, fraud? You be the judge.

No. There is no injury; you say it's all an effort to extract money, but you offer no proof of injury.

[_brade]

Fraud involves
(1) a false statement of a material fact,
(2) knowledge on the part of the speaker that the statement is untrue,
(3) intent on the part of the speaker to deceive the alleged victim,
(4) justifiable reliance by the hearer on the statement, and
(5) injury to the hearer as a result.

(Different iterations of this legal standard break it into more elements, and describe them differently, as there are slight variances in the way one court to the next .)

Do the Brethren/COB commit fraud?

I don't believe they commit fraud.

[_sock puppet]

Injury? Sure, this is all part of an effort by the Brethren/COB to get the hearers, members and investigators alike, to pay tithing--and many do, and pay handsomely. Particularly those that pay on their gross, or even net--not just the amount that they do not spend (the apologetic/Pharisaical hair-split).

Well then, fraud? You be the judge.

No. There is no injury; you say it's all an effort to extract money, but you offer no proof of injury.

It causes people to part with their money to the COB, to 'buy a stairway to heaven' that the COB doesn't have to sell in the first place.

[_sock puppet]

Fraud involves
(1) a false statement of a material fact,
(2) knowledge on the part of the speaker that the statement is untrue,
(3) intent on the part of the speaker to deceive the alleged victim,
(4) justifiable reliance by the hearer on the statement, and
(5) injury to the hearer as a result.

(Different iterations of this legal standard break it into more elements, and describe them differently, as there are slight variances in the way one court to the next .)

Do the Brethren/COB commit fraud?

I don't believe they commit fraud.

What would you call it? Corporate malfeasance?