The Coming Storm

[_Chap]

If people in the US leave the church over this will they also leave the US when their govt does the same, and worse?

A church that claims to be guided by a living prophet has perhaps to meet higher standards than a government that does not (as yet ...) make that claim.

Anyhow - it is reasonable to expect that people will leave a church they disapprove of, and they often do.

It is not reasonable to expect people to leave their native country because they disapprove of the actions of the government of that country.

[_Joe Geisner]

If people in the US leave the church over this will they also leave the US when their govt does the same, and worse?

I am glad people are enjoying the article. The daguerreotype of Jesse Thompson Hartley took Mike years to find and then get permission to use the image. Mike deserves a great deal fo credit for putting this piece together.

Quaker, great question. When I learned what a tyrant and cold blooded killer Andrew Jackson was, I was appalled that his face is on every twenty dollar bill. We American's should be ashamed to have this murderer on our currency. When Newt spoke about Jackson in the debate, the Internet was hopping with what an idiot Newt is to mention Jackson.

But will this cause me to denounce my U.S. citizenship, no way. Because I have other people like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, John Adams, Franklin Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt, Martin Luther King Jr., Amelia Earhart, and many many others I can respect.

I would also question your comparison. Mormons have always claimed they are God's chosen, they are better than all the rest and they are the persecuted. None of Mormon history validates these claims. None of the history validates Smith claim as God's mouth piece. Mormonism is no different than any other religion. It has nothing better in its history and in places it is much worse.

[_bcspace]

No, because a man is not justified by God in his killing, whereas a Prophet is.

Sure he is. Carrying out the command of capital punishment for murder or war, etc.

[_Buffalo]

No, because a man is not justified by God in his killing, whereas a Prophet is.

Sure he is. Carrying out the command of capital punishment for murder or war, etc.

Or in this case, the prophet covering up for his theft with two murders.

[_Blixa]

Thanks, Joe! I'm very, very happy to see this!

edited to add: I have to say George Armstrong Hicks' word is good enough for me: "Mr. Hartley was a gentleman and schollar."

[_Blixa]

Finished.

A couple of comments:

--once again I'm reminded how much Hosea Stout was a johnny-on-the-spot. That guy was on hand for just about everything interesting that went down in early Mormonism.

--I had to smile to see the first, in my knowledge, gloss on phrase "sending to Hell across lots." The meaning was always clear from the context and I always assumed that "across lots" was another term for a short cut. Still it was nice to see this all laid out in footnote 21 with a reference to a Pulsipher family phraseology scrapbook: "To send someone "to hell across lots" —on a shortcut to hell— was a euphemism for murder. ―A Scrap-book Containing Some of the Phraseology and Selected Instruction — & Abbridged Speeches of Inspired Men."

--footnote 31 which takes up the thorny question of the veracity of Bill Hickman's memoir is also meaty. I especially liked the information regarding Hickman descendant Hope Hilton's change of view after her collaboration with Leonard Arrington in his famous Dialogue article on Hickman. The question of how much sensationalist material editor J.H. Beadle added to the memoir is answered thusly in her later writing: " I do not question whether Hickman actually wrote Brigham’s Destroying Angel. It is too accurate in its details to have been written by anyone else." She acknowledged that the "avowedly anti-Mormon editor, J. H. Beadle," wrote the preface, the first chapter, and "the bitter diatribe against Young and the Mormons on pages 137–39 [all bylined "By the editor"], probably the first paragraph on page 192, and several other brief inserts, sometimes adding only a single word. Except for these additions, Hickman‘s mind and hand are the book‘s undisputed source. Beadle did not have access to Brigham Young‘s daily office journal or to other sources available today which confirm many of the book‘s first-hand statements."

--footnote 56 recommends a very, very good article by Bill MacKinnon, "'Lonely Bones‘: Leadership and Utah War Violence," Journal of Mormon History (Spring 2007), 121–78, which I also recommend (as well as MacKinnon's book At Sword's Point, Part 1: A Documentary History of the Utah War to 1858


Thanks for a "pleasant" afternoon's reading Joe.

[_Joe Geisner]

Thanks, Joe! I'm very, very happy to see this!

edited to add: I have to say George Armstrong Hicks' word is good enough for me: "Mr. Hartley was a gentleman and schollar."

Blixa,

Great observations. I am in complete agreement with you on all points, particularly the need to read "Lonely Bones." As for "Destroying Angel", it was Robert Baskin who convinced me that Hickman was the author of the book. Baskin writes that he would quiz Hickman over dates and events and was convinced that Hickman was telling the truth. When the book came out, Baskin read it and it had the same detail that Hickman gave Baskin in the interviews. I convinced Bill MacKinnon to read Baskin and he came to the same conclusion. Maybe this is what Hope Hilton read that changed her mind.

After reading Bill's excellent proses, I was over come with emotion, almost nausea because of Hickman's blood thirsty ways.

As Will Bagley points out, William Hickman was called the "human hyena" for good reason. While Richard Yates was his prisoner during the "Utah War", Hickman had him in shackles as Yates lay in bed a sleep, Hickman took an ax and split his head in half. All of this was done after two members of the First Presidency placed Yates under Hickman’s “care” and Young’s only concern after the fact was making sure Hickman had given him all Yates‘ money that Hickman had found on the dead man’s body.

To read Bill's masterful article, go to:
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... monhistory

Isn't the Internet great!

Oh and I hear rumor that Matt Grow is attacking Bagley and Bigler's "Mormon Rebellion." You know, we have to keep the faithful paying that ten percent!

[_Fence Sitter]

Finished.

A couple of comments:

--once again I'm reminded how much Hosea Stout was a johnny-on-the-spot. That guy was on hand for just about everything interesting that went down in early Mormonism.

--I had to smile to see the first, in my knowledge, gloss on phrase "sending to Hell across lots." The meaning was always clear from the context and I always assumed that "across lots" was another term for a short cut. Still it was nice to see this all laid out in footnote 21 with a reference to a Pulsipher family phraseology scrapbook: "To send someone "to hell across lots" —on a shortcut to hell— was a euphemism for murder. ―A Scrap-book Containing Some of the Phraseology and Selected Instruction — & Abbridged Speeches of Inspired Men."

--footnote 31 which takes up the thorny question of the veracity of Bill Hickman's memoir is also meaty. I especially liked the information regarding Hickman descendant Hope Hilton's change of view after her collaboration with Leonard Arrington in his famous Dialogue article on Hickman. The question of how much sensationalist material editor J.H. Beadle added to the memoir is answered thusly in her later writing: " I do not question whether Hickman actually wrote Brigham’s Destroying Angel. It is too accurate in its details to have been written by anyone else." She acknowledged that the "avowedly anti-Mormon editor, J. H. Beadle," wrote the preface, the first chapter, and "the bitter diatribe against Young and the Mormons on pages 137–39 [all bylined "By the editor"], probably the first paragraph on page 192, and several other brief inserts, sometimes adding only a single word. Except for these additions, Hickman‘s mind and hand are the book‘s undisputed source. Beadle did not have access to Brigham Young‘s daily office journal or to other sources available today which confirm many of the book‘s first-hand statements."

--footnote 56 recommends a very, very good article by Bill MacKinnon, "'Lonely Bones‘: Leadership and Utah War Violence," Journal of Mormon History (Spring 2007), 121–78, which I also recommend (as well as MacKinnon's book At Sword's Point, Part 1: A Documentary History of the Utah War to 1858


Thanks for a "pleasant" afternoon's reading Joe.

Okay stop reading my copy please!!!

Those were the three footnotes I had highlighted.

Go Cougars!!!

[_Willy Law]

As Will Bagley points out, William Hickman was called the "human hyena" for good reason. While Richard Yates was his prisoner during the "Utah War", Hickman had him in shackles as Yates lay in bed a sleep, Hickman took an ax and split his head in half. All of this was done after two members of the First Presidency placed Yates under Hickman’s “care” and Young’s only concern after the fact was making sure Hickman had given him all Yates‘ money that Hickman had found on the dead man’s body.
!

Buffalo is right, this would be a better tv show than the Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire.

[_Blixa]

Go Cougars!!!

I saw what you did there.