I suppose I could offer some thoughts, from an LDS perspective anyway. I've been told that most of the responses one might receive here are not LDS perspectives.
Alfredo wrote:Well, I was just banned from my favorite forum for reminding one too many apologists of something which they often forget... being they defend a very serious and involved religion which practices an extreme and clearly evident form of harmful indoctrination.
May we examine your choice of words here -
extreme... harmful indoctrination. Do you think you're likely to make many friends by describing someone's deeply held belief system in such a way? I reject these descriptors, and submit that the reality of Mormonism is quite the opposite of the picture you paint here.
Undoubtedly, pushing the right buttons too hard is just too much dissonance for any apologist who wishes to be respected as a balanced and reasonable intellectual, the sort of which the Church and its culture systematically suppresses in children with ideas about Anti-Mormonism.
Again, let us examine the choice of descriptors here -
systematically suppresses in children. Do you have any evidence for any of these statements, or are you speaking from a place of irrational anger?
So, I hope I'm welcomed because I'd like to spend some time here picking fights.
I assure you, dear friend, that you will be
more than welcomed here. Though, do not expect many to fight back.
I'm reasonably confident I've formulated an argument which subverts every response offered in defense of the first and foremost persuading evidence for the foundation of Mormon belief: The personal religious experience. You can find it here in The Celestial Forum:
http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22559.
I don't find it convincing at all.
I'd love any comments or disputes which would aid me in developing this argument.
An argument which has been attempted thousands of times since the beginnings of the restoration. With each failure comes another arrogant chap who believes she has finally created the end-all argument. I wish you luck in that.
But how can I be so confident?!!? So radically comprehensive??!? Well, more or less because
apologists are so confident. Because from the beginning, the answer has always been their
personal experience. Put simply, you can overthrow the foundation of apologetics simply by questioning the starting point for every Mormon idea--past, present, and future.
I want to show this by first dividing Mormon apologetics into three categories:
1) Defend Mormonism as possible, given that Mormonism is true.
2) Defend Mormonism as true, by refuting negative argument.
3) Defend Mormonism as true, by giving positive argument.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could divide everything against which we argue into a neat little false trichotomy? It would make arguing against any religion so much easier.
I want to point out that apologist and critics are playing two different games. Because before getting worked up in a debate, the apologist often fails to mention that they're not interested in the logical purposes of any of these categories.
Many here know that when you struggle to the bottom of nearly every glorified evidential, epistemic, or theological argument defending Mormonism, you'll find that respectively...
1) Mormonism is defended as possible, but only because the apologist has made the prior determination that Mormonism is true.
Not necessarily. Possible and true are distinct ideas. The idea of existence of life on other planets is possible, but we're still waiting to find out if it's true or not (it almost definitely is).
2) Concerning negative argument, Mormonism can be defended as true against any argument by simply appealing to faith, which religious experience justifies in the face of seemingly damning evidence.
I've seen no "seemingly damning evidence" presented against Mormonism, ever. Even if there were, however, faith is what religion is based upon, and it is therefore correct to appeal to it when discussing religion.
3) Concerning positive argument, the only contention that really matters--that anyone actually cares about--is the argument from religious experience.
I care about the argument from religious experience, but that's not all that I actually care about. I care about physical evidence, too. I care about textual analysis, for example. I also care about finding truths in my faith that can be applied to my life.
They're only interested in serving the Church, which ultimately serves their own interpretation of their own particular religious experience.
Yes. Every individual religious experience is uniquely interpreted by each individual.
This is highly evident in conception of Anti-Mormonism. The critic's argument ultimately doesn't matter, because we already know it's been designed to deceive.
Has it not been designed to deceive?
It has been made undeniably clear through Mormon doctrine, culture, teachings, and even the admission by Mormons, that religious experience is the best and only necessary evidence needed to justify Mormon belief... Mormonism stands or falls on the reliable interpretation of religious experience.
Incorrect. Mormon does not stand or fall on the reliable interpretation of religious experience.
It's a closed system.
So, what, it eventually becomes heat?
That is, to find the capacity to consider their religious experience from a perspective completely removed from Mormon doctrine and thought.
Why do you believe this to be difficult? When I wasn't LDS, I examined my religious experiences in such a way. I've now been LDS for quite a long time.
So, how do we change the game?
We move Mormonism onto the public stage. Facilitate the emergence of Mormonism, finally, on a level playing field. Where Mormons can't help but to face that their unique, we're-so-special-and-blessed feeling could possibly be not as unique as once thought, so that millions will have to the chance to make the first step out. The problem can never be solved until the Church is forced into an environment where they can no longer depend solely upon their epistemic elitism. So, this does sound like the end of "Mormonism". The end of the control being unique and special provides which creates a false sense of security in Mormonism's questionable foundation.
lol. Thoughts?
Young man (or woman), I recommend you check your ego at the door. Thousands before you have tried, and thousands after you will try to bring down this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and none have or will succeed. Why makes you so special? It sounds like the most potent elitism is found within you.