For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _DrW »

liz3564 wrote:Wow...

Darth, you must really harbor a lot of hate toward the Church.

I saw no statements in the OP and subsequent installments of "An Intro to the LDS Church" that were not true. Not only that, references were provided.

Why do some folks seem to consider the mention of any negative truth about the LDS Church, even when it is expressed in a neutral or even positive context, as an expression of hate toward the Church?

I personally think that Darth J has gone to a great deal of effort to provide a fair and balanced introduction.

If this comes across to you as an expression of hate against which you feel the need to express animosity, perhaps your animosity is misdirected.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Darth J »

liz3564 wrote:Wow...

Darth, you must really harbor a lot of hate toward the Church.


One of the truths we learn in the Gospel is that there must needs be opposition in all things. Thus, it is to be expected that the Church is sometimes criticized for nothing more than asserting that it is the one true religion in the world and everyone else is in a state of apostasy.

From its very origins, Mormonism has been subject to persecution. The Church teaches that we should not turn to anti-Mormon sources to learn the truth about the Restoration.

Indeed, one of the common bonds that we all share as Mormons is the knowledge that the world hates us because they hate righteousness. This shared experience is true both of regular rank-and-file Latter-day Saints as well as those who self-identify as "New Order Mormons." When confronting criticism of the Church, it is important to remind those participating in such discussions that criticism of the Church is motivated by hate.
_Equality
_Emeritus
Posts: 3362
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:44 pm

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Equality »

"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_Radex
_Emeritus
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:42 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Radex »

This is standard anti-Mormon drivel.

Darth J wrote:Hello, Utah ohana! I see in another thread that you are considering joining the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the official legal name of the organization sometimes known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


And?

I am a lifelong member of the Church myself, so I thought I would briefly share some of our beliefs.


Ah, the standard anti-Mormon mantra of "I'm a member/former member, so I will tell the LDS people what they believe". You are mistaken if this fib gives you any credibility whatever.

The religious entity from which the LDS Church and the various other sects of the Mormon movement sprang began in the 1820's with "Joe Smith" (not his real name).


Well, that much is true. The prophet's name was Joseph Smith, Jr.

When he was 14, and also 15, and also 16, Joseph Smith had his First Vision. He prayed to know if God existed at all. He also knew that there was a God, but prayed to be forgiven of his sins. And also he prayed to know which church was the true one. In response, he saw angels, and also Jesus by himself, and also God the Father and Jesus together. All of these stories are completely consistent. From this miraculous event that he neglected to tell anyone about until years later, Joseph Smith was called as a prophet to restore the true gospel of Jesus Christ.


http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... pts/?id=52

Also

From the FAIR website wrote:Joseph's vision was at first an intensely personal experience—an answer to a specific question. Over time, however, illuminated by additional experience and instruction, it became the founding revelation of the Restoration.
—Dennis B. Neuenschwander, “Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ,” Ensign, Jan 2009, 16–22

I am not worried that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave a number of versions of the first vision anymore than I am worried that there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament, each with his own perceptions, each telling the events to meet his own purpose for writing at the time. I am more concerned with the fact that God has revealed in this dispensation a great and marvelous and beautiful plan that motivates men and women to love their Creator and their Redeemer, to appreciate and serve one another, to walk in faith on the road that leads to immortality and eternal life.
—B. Hinckley, “‘God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear’,” Ensign, Oct 1984, 2


Depending on which of the completely consistent versions of the First Vision one is going by, a few years later Joseph Smith was praying at night in his family's log cabin. In response to his prayer, Joseph was visited by a resurrected being named Moroni,


Resurrected beings are not analogous to folklore about the undead. Have a little respect for other people's faith.

who was an ancient Christian prophet and military leader on the American continent. Taking advantage of Joseph Smith's expertise in using magic to find buried treasure, Moroni told Joseph about an ancient record on golden plates that Moroni had buried in a hill near Joseph's home around 421 A.D., just in case Joseph Smith would live there 14 centuries later.


No. Not "just in case" he would live there. It was all planned by God.

Eventually, Joseph Smith translated this ancient record by the power of God. This record is a scripture comparable to the Bible, and is known as The Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon tells the story of a people who emigrated from Jerusalem to America around 600 B.C., shortly before the Babylonian Captivity. Not long after reaching America, there was a division among the people.


Aside from the childish links to unrelated items, this is mostly correct.

The good, white Hebrew people who practiced evangelical Christianity


Wrong.

centuries before the fact were known as Nephites. The evil, black-skinned people who rejected Christianity and made war against the good people were known as Lamanites.


Wrong. Skin color has nothing to do with being "good" or "bad".

After 1,000 years or so, the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites in a genocidal war. So complete was this massacre that it caused all the artifacts, cities, language, religion, domesticated animals, technology, and DNA of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon to disappear without a trace.


Oh, it did? Call for references.

Joseph Smith also restored the priesthood, which is the authority from God to perform saving ordinances. The most basic of these is baptism by immersion. Following baptism is confirmation, where we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Again, without the childish links this is mostly correct.

God ultimately revealed to Joseph Smith that in sacred temples dedicated to God, worthy members of the Church could also perform these ordinances on behalf of the deceased. Joseph Smith was also inspired to restore an important ordinance done in temples called the endowment, where we learn sacred teachings that will help us return to God.


Aside from the unrelated links, mostly correct.

These scriptures and other teachings of Joseph Smith and other modern
prophets teach us that our Heavenly Father used to be a man who lived on another planet. After becoming God, He now lives on/near the planet/and or star Kolob. He sent us from our disembodied pre-mortal life to this world, where, if we give 10% of our money to His church and do as we are told, we can become like our Heavenly Father. This is known as the Plan of Salvation.


The above is completely wrong. Call for references on all of it- from scripture.
RaDex: The Radio Index. The All-Wave Radio Log Authority
_SteelHead
_Emeritus
Posts: 8261
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:40 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _SteelHead »

Wrong. Skin color has nothing to do with being "good" or "bad".


Radex,
have you read the Book of Mormon?

Do you remember the part where the repentant Lamanites became white and delightsome?

2 Nephi 30:6
.
.
their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people


Oh.... they edited that out....

But then it reappears

3 Nephi 2:15
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;


Which curse was that?

Oh this one:

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.


Guess you haven't read it.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Radex
_Emeritus
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:42 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Radex »

SteelHead wrote:Radex,
have you read the Book of Mormon?

Do you remember the part where the repentant Lamanites became white and delightsome?


I remember the part where the Lamanites became spiritually light and delightsome, yes.

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences ... -of-mormon
RaDex: The Radio Index. The All-Wave Radio Log Authority
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Darth J »

Radex wrote: "The same histrionic BS I used to post as Simon Belmont"


By the way, Mr. Lorry Driver, I notice you did not refer to skin "colour." I guess it is hard to stay in character all the time.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _Darth J »

oxygenadam/Simon Belmont/Nibley's Ghost/Radex wrote:
Darth J wrote:After 1,000 years or so, the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites in a genocidal war. So complete was this massacre that it caused all the artifacts, cities, language, religion, domesticated animals, technology, and DNA of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon to disappear without a trace.



Oh, it did? Call for references.


I am unable to provide references for any artifacts, cities, language, religion, domesticated animals, technology, or DNA of the people spoken of in the Book of Mormon. That is because none of the above items exist.

Congratulations! You win!
_SteelHead
_Emeritus
Posts: 8261
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:40 am

Re: For Utah ohana: An Intro to the LDS Church

Post by _SteelHead »

Radex wrote:I remember the part where the Lamanites became spiritually light and delightsome, yes.

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences ... -of-mormon


Do I not read english correctly?

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.


This is talking about "skin color".

And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;


As is this.

Please explain how it means anything else. I am awaiting your demonstration in Olympic level mental rhythmic gymnastics. Too bad when the apologist can't take a book for what it plainly says.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
Post Reply