If they had developed civilization 20,000 years ago instead of 10,000, then 10,000 years ago there would have been a BCSPace arguing on a message board "then why didn't they develop civilization until 10,000 years ago?" It happened when it happened. What would it have looked like if it had happened differently?
The difference between 8,000 and 20,000 years ago can only be 1/20th the total time of the existence of modern homo sapiens at most. In other words, Sethbag's argument is of no import.
For the purposes of this thread I'm not interested in going on a treasure hunt for quotes that qualify under your definition of official doctrine (Although if someone does know of qualifying quotes, feel free to share).
You would indeed lose that battle.
The argument I'm making is simply that a God who has the ability to create humanity in a quick and painless way is not likely to choose to do it in a manner that takes 3.8 billion years and requires death and extinction on a massive scale.
When faced with challenges on the differences between what scientific information is coming forward with and what the Church teaches about creation, the appropriate apologetics are:
1. Death (as in no death before Adam) doesn't mean death as we know and understand it. It means 'spiritual death', because per-Adamites didn't have spirits. This has been built on and now (according to bcspace) means didn't have the same kind of spirits.
2. No death refers to just the part of the earth designated for Adam to live in, rather than the whole planet. So even though there was plenty of death outside of Adams garden of residence, we can say no death because Adam didn't see any.
There, problem solved. Now all we have to establish is why God didn't tell the writer of Genesis all this....
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
moksha wrote:Even as a believer, why be constrained to hold onto the most impossible portions? Why not regard it as sacred fiction and refuse to let it impose on the worthwhile things you believe?
As usual, I agree with the penguin.
I see no reason why we should try to impose an understanding of evolution on the ancient authors of Genesis. There is nothing in the creation account there to imply such an understanding.
I also think it a mistake to impose modern ideas of cosmology on the account, where it is obvious the author thought of the earth and the heavens in a very different way from current conceptions.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Scriptures are meant to be records of stuff that we need to know, us from the future. However, it strikes me that the ancients could have done with an insight into what we now know today.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
I see no reason why we should try to impose an understanding of evolution on the ancient authors of Genesis. There is nothing in the creation account there to imply such an understanding.
I also think it a mistake to impose modern ideas of cosmology on the account, where it is obvious the author thought of the earth and the heavens in a very different way from current conceptions.
1. Yes, the LDS Church does teach in its official curricula that: (a) there was no physical death for any lifeform on this planet prior to the Fall; (b) evolution is not compatible with the Plan of Salvation; and (c) the Earth and everything on it was created in a paradisaical---i.e., immortal---state, which did not change until the Fall. http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... p?p=499899
“Of course, I think those people who hold to the view that man has come up through all these ages from the scum of the sea through billions of years do not believe in Adam. Honestly I do not know how they can, and I am going to show you that they do not. There are some who attempt to do it but they are inconsistent—absolutely inconsistent, because that doctrine is so incompatible, so utterly out of harmony, with the revelations of the Lord that a man just cannot believe in both.
“. . . I say most emphatically, you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man, and at the same time accept the plan of salvation as set forth by the Lord our God. You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so. . . .
“. . . Then Adam, and by that I mean the first man, was not capable of sin. He could not transgress, and by doing so bring death into the world; for, according to this theory, death had always been in the world. If, therefore, there was no fall, there was no need of an atonement, hence the coming into the world of the Son of God as the Savior of the world is a contradiction, a thing impossible. Are you prepared to believe such a thing as that?” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:141–42.)
In Star Wars, Han Solo tells Luke Skywalker that the Millenium Falcon is the spaceship "that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs."
This is obviously a mistake in the script, since Han is implying that a parsec is a unit of time, instead of a unit of distance.
However, faithful Star Wars fans who cannot abide the idea that there could be a real world mistake in the screenplay have come up with an apologetic to explain how the use of "parsecs" in this context by Han Solo has a perfectly reasonable basis. Note that this description of the Kessel Run appears nowhere in the movies, nor in anything that George Lucas ever said.
In Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, a boastful Han Solo claims that his spaceship made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. This is odd because he says parsec like it is a unit of time, but it really is a unit of distance. However this really isn't a mess up when one thinks about it. The Kessel Run refers to a course about a black hole. While most ships would be sucked into the hole being that close the Millennium Falcon was fast enough to overcome those powerful forces. Thus backing up Han's claim about his legendary ship!
The thing to keep in mind about Solo's claim of doing the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs is that the Kessel Run is through the Maw. Event Horizons around black holes are dependent on the speed at which you are traveling. A standard ship has to do the run in 18 parsecs because to cut the route any closer, the ship would get sucked in. The Falcon, however, is fast enough to straighten the route and cut over 6 parsecs off the distance traveled. This makes sense, since the Falcon is faster than most ships and he was using more power than what the engines should have been able to use. While this argument may all be after-the-fact justification for an actual scriptwriting error, the logic does hold, although Solo could have just been boasting to his potential clients.
On the other hand, a parsec is a very small unit in astronomical terms, only 3.26 light years. Elementary arithmetic shows that if the Galaxy is the same size as the Milky Way, roughly 30,000 parsecs across, any ship capable of traveling across the galaxy in only a few weeks would travel six parsecs in less than ten minutes-- hardly a significant difference. A similar issue arises in The Courtship of Princess Leia, when it takes more than a week to travel a distance of only seventy parsecs (the stated distance between Dathomir and Coruscant).
If indeed the listener is to believe Han Solo's claim of a twelve parsec Kessel Run, there is also the problem posed by Einstein's special theory of relativity. Under Einstein's theory, no matter may travel faster than the speed of light in real space. Additionally, as any matter approaches the speed of light, time begins to pass much more slowly relative to the surrounding universe. If indeed the Kessel Run is completed in real space in order to traverse the territory around the Maw, the trip would take at minimum (and in practicality much longer) 36 years to complete.
I've seen Darth J provide the quotes for you before and he has provided them again. I leave it to the reader to determine who is correct.
bcspace wrote:How do you know He has that ability?
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Mosiah 3:21 21 And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.
Mosiah 3:18 18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
If he is omnipotent he has the ability to create man in a quick and painless way. No need for a scenic detour of 3.8 billion years.
Last edited by _Stormy Waters on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.