Scott Gordon's Deceptive Apologetic

[_RayAgostini]

True, but I would still need a good explanation as to why a believing Mormon would ever need to defer to some historian's theory as justification for rejecting more than a century's worth of official doctrine.

Well, that's the problem, as Bush explains, how the supposed "official doctrine" evolved, and devolved, even with McKay himself.

[_Sethbag]

Whether or not one should take seriously McConkie's admonition to forget what he and others had previously said regarding blacks in the priesthood depends on what result one is looking for.

If a member is asking what they should believe, then they should take McConkie's admonition at face value and forget what he said before.

If a member is looking at the pattern and totality of Mormon leaders' statements over time and looking for evidence that these men should be viewed as credible emissaries of the Creator of the Entire Universe, then McConkie's admonition is damning. It simply destroys the credibility of the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Indeed, McConkie admits as such, saying that they didn't know what the “F” they were talking about. Which is a statement I can hardly disagree with.

[_RayAgostini]

My time limit is almost up for today, but I'll post one more thing:

It came to my attention that Joseph Fielding Smith (then President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) had published an article in the Church News about this matter and in the process had essentially contradicted one of his assumptions in his earlier discussion of the matter in The Way to Perfection, then calling blacks an “inferior” race and now specifically saying they were not. Two of my friends who were concerned about the same matter and, as I did, looked at President Smith as the nearly official scriptorian of the Church, made an appointment for us to see him. President Smith was not very anxious to see us since he was being baited from many sources at that time, but after some assurances of our intentions he gave us some time and was particularly gracious when one of my friends, moved I think by the prayer we offered together before going, began the interview by confessing in tears that his original motives for coming had been somewhat contentious.

I told President Smith about my experiences with the issue of blacks and the priesthood and asked him whether I must believe in the pre-existence doctrine to have good standing in the Church. His answer was, “Yes, because that is the teaching of the scriptures.” I asked President Smith if he would show me the teaching in the scriptures (with some trepidation, because I was convinced that if anyone in the [p.132] world could show me, he would). He read over with me the modern scriptural sources and then, after some reflection, said something to me that fully revealed the formidable integrity which characterized his whole life: “No, you do not have to believe that Negroes are denied the priesthood because of the pre-existence. I have always assumed that, because it was what I was taught, and it made sense, but you don’t have to believe it to be in good standing, because it is not definitely stated in the scriptures. And I have received no revelation on the matter.” Then it was, as we continued our discussion, that he said, with what seems to be irrefutable logic, that if, as he believed, the reason for the denial was the pre-existence then there could be no expectation that blacks would receive the priesthood in his life, because that would not be fair to those who had been denied it up to that point. [The logic of this also clearly means, of course, that if blacks were ever given the priesthood in this life, that fact alone would prove the "pre-existent choice" notions false. But, in fact, even since the 1978 revelation, some Mormons continue to believe and teach those disproved and dangerous ideas about race, etc., being conditioned upon previous righteousness. Note added, 1983]

Eugene England, The Mormon Cross.

[_harmony]

I told President Smith about my experiences with the issue of blacks and the priesthood and asked him whether I must believe in the pre-existence doctrine to have good standing in the Church. His answer was, “Yes, because that is the teaching of the scriptures.” I asked President Smith if he would show me the teaching in the scriptures (with some trepidation, because I was convinced that if anyone in the [p.132] world could show me, he would). He read over with me the modern scriptural sources and then, after some reflection, said something to me that fully revealed the formidable integrity which characterized his whole life: “No, you do not have to believe that Negroes are denied the priesthood because of the pre-existence. I have always assumed that, because it was what I was taught, and it made sense, but you don’t have to believe it to be in good standing, because it is not definitely stated in the scriptures. And I have received no revelation on the matter.”

Good grief. Good freakin' grief. Have we always been led by fools, by men who don't question a thing, even when it's damning?

[_Equality]

I told President Smith about my experiences with the issue of blacks and the priesthood and asked him whether I must believe in the pre-existence doctrine to have good standing in the Church. His answer was, “Yes, because that is the teaching of the scriptures.” I asked President Smith if he would show me the teaching in the scriptures (with some trepidation, because I was convinced that if anyone in the [p.132] world could show me, he would). He read over with me the modern scriptural sources and then, after some reflection, said something to me that fully revealed the formidable integrity which characterized his whole life: “No, you do not have to believe that Negroes are denied the priesthood because of the pre-existence. I have always assumed that, because it was what I was taught, and it made sense, but you don’t have to believe it to be in good standing, because it is not definitely stated in the scriptures. And I have received no revelation on the matter.”

Good grief. Good freakin' grief. Have we always been led by fools, by men who don't question a thing, even when it's damning?

I love how this whole Professor Bott thing has got the apologists arguing, essentially, that the Mormon prophets have been clueless for many decades--no more enlightened than your average Joe (pun intended).