Nightlion wrote:How would the faith of the Jewish people be today had there been no abuse? Let's say that WWII never happened. Nothing cathartic occurs among Jews just greater secular wonders abounding and what? Could they long survive without dissolving completely in the relentless solvents of modern atheism? ....
There have been huge, ongoing discussions on the implications of Holocaust in the Jewish community. The initial reflexive response in Judaism, which was that the Holocaust happened because of the relatively secular nature of Ashkenazic Jews, has almost universally been abandoned. Rather than increasing faith, it's often argued that the experience has eroded the beliefs of everyday Jews in orthodox forms of Judaism and has instead increased Jewish atheism and secularization.
Without the abuses of WWII Judaism may well have vanished entirely as we see how overcome by the world they have become anyways. You might not see it yet but the seeds of faith are in there, dormant perhaps, but still. The holocaust is a scape goat for the rampant atheism that was already abundant before WWII.
Nightlion wrote:Without the abuses of WWII Judaism may well have vanished entirely as we see how overcome by the world they have become anyways. You might not see it yet but the seeds of faith are in there, dormant perhaps, but still. The holocaust is a scape goat for the rampant atheism that was already abundant before WWII.
Please Nightlion. This is indecent. Be good guy and STFU.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
MrStakhanovite wrote:In my Theology after the Holocaust seminar this term,
I can't think why you're not popular at parties...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Morley wrote:There have been huge, ongoing discussions on the implications of Holocaust in the Jewish community. The initial reflexive response in Judaism, which was that the Holocaust happened because of the relatively secular nature of Ashkenazic Jews, has almost universally been abandoned. Rather than increasing faith, it's often argued that the experience has eroded the beliefs of everyday Jews in orthodox forms of Judaism and has instead increased Jewish atheism and secularization.
Without the abuses of WWII Judaism may well have vanished entirely as we see how overcome by the world they have become anyways. You might not see it yet but the seeds of faith are in there, dormant perhaps, but still. The holocaust is a scape goat for the rampant atheism that was already abundant before WWII.
I respect you a great deal, James, but you're wrong about many things. This is one of them.
Judaism's survival will be in spite of the Holocaust, not because of it. This lapse in God's rationality (if there be a God) was in no regard some hidden, heavenly benevolence.
Nightlion wrote: Without the abuses of WWII Judaism may well have vanished entirely as we see how overcome by the world they have become anyways. You might not see it yet but the seeds of faith are in there, dormant perhaps, but still. The holocaust is a scape goat for the rampant atheism that was already abundant before WWII.
I respect you a great deal, James, but you're wrong about many things. This is one of them.
Judaism's survival will be in spite of the Holocaust, not because of it. This lapse in God's rationality (if there be a God) was in no regard some hidden, heavenly benevolence.
Thanks, sincerely. And yet for all that they suffered, being chosen, shall the Lord yet be justified, if they do not altogether turn away from him, in opening up that which is seeded within them. I know about the hidden resilience of having been abused. If you endure it well God can make exceptions that may not seem fair otherwise. We shall see. The promise is still opened.
Nightlion wrote:Thanks, sincerely. And yet for all that they suffered, being chosen, shall the Lord yet be justified, if they do not altogether turn away from him, in opening up that which is seeded within them. I know about the hidden resilience of having been abused. If you endure it will God can make exceptions that may not seem fair otherwise. We shall see. The promise is still opened.
The great and enduring myth: what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. In reality, sometimes what doesn't kill me, cripples me and damages me for life.
Abuse doesn't make anyone stronger. It makes them abused. They may or may not become stronger.
Nightlion wrote:Without the abuses of WWII Judaism may well have vanished entirely as we see how overcome by the world they have become anyways. You might not see it yet but the seeds of faith are in there, dormant perhaps, but still. The holocaust is a scape goat for the rampant atheism that was already abundant before WWII.
I respect you a great deal, James, but you're wrong about many things. This is one of them. Judaism's survival will be in spite of the Holocaust, not because of it. This lapse in God's rationality (if there be a God) was in no regard some hidden, heavenly benevolence.
Pffft, God gave them modern-day Israel as a consolation prize (by the way I'm kidding). Although, I've heard Mormons and Christians often refer to this as a blessing. I wonder about this blessing though. I'd be surprised if modern-day Israel survives this century without being wiped off the map by the Muslim nations around them. The demographics are clearly against them.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Nightlion wrote:Thanks, sincerely. And yet for all that they suffered, being chosen, shall the Lord yet be justified, if they do not altogether turn away from him, in opening up that which is seeded within them. I know about the hidden resilience of having been abused. If you endure it will God can make exceptions that may not seem fair otherwise. We shall see. The promise is still opened.
The great and enduring myth: what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. In reality, sometimes what doesn't kill me, cripples me and damages me for life.
Abuse doesn't make anyone stronger. It makes them abused. They may or may not become stronger.
All I can say is to what I lived of it. can't say if you are only guessing here. Perhaps. There are lifelong residuals of having been abused that mark you. Weakness that only God can turn into strengths. And that turning is glorious. Fun even. lol.
I believe that the Lord delights more in the lost, or damaged soul's revival and sometimes puts that up in the face of hypocrites with ardor. Who can stand before the NEANER NEANER of the Lord? So to speak. lol
Morley wrote:The great and enduring myth: what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. In reality, sometimes what doesn't kill me, cripples me and damages me for life.
Abuse doesn't make anyone stronger. It makes them abused. They may or may not become stronger.
I was struck by the directness of this comment. There are serious limitations and problems with the theoretical picture of lifes difficulties as being tests set up to perfect our strength and wisdom. A lot of arguments have been posted pointing out how that does not work. Suffering does not fit the people. It overwhelms injures scars people in patterns unrelated to individual imporovement or individual needs. In fact suffering can be seen as more of an impediment than a help in many cases. Perhaps people temporarily missing their allotement of suffering are the ones attracted to the theory of other peoples suffering being calisthenics for moral improvement.
I think a more honestly Christian view is closer to some form of we are at war with evil and the war has suffering and casualties.In that view the author of holocaust is Satan or human evil. Stak may not like the hint of dualism that this picture entails. I realize Christian thinking wants to avoid dualism and insists Satan is second rate derivative power. I am not disagreeing but I think there is something in Gods creative capacity which cannot avoid producing the potential for evil in creating creature, humans or angels, which have freedom in the sense of particapating in the image of God.
People sometimes insist God should be able to make this smooth painless universe. But he couldn't and some of his creation are determined to pray upon the life of others.
Nightlion wrote:How would the faith of the Jewish people be today had there been no abuse?
It’s not very useful to do counterfactual history.
Nightlion wrote:I personally am familiar with how abuse can invent faith and love and charity from out of nothing but the hope against hope of wanting these things and somehow knowing God must be out there.
I don’t buy it James. There was no net result of good to come out of the systematic execution of 11 million people.
