The disaffected Mormon problem

[_Buffalo]

which was something that I always liked, and still do like about Mormonism...it's more mellow and toned down.

Which can also be interpreted as: dull, boring, and repetitive.

Yes.

I was always disappointed when we would have a nice special music number in sacrament meeting and some poor investigator would inevitably clap...bringing glares from everyone in the congregation.

I always wanted to say, "oh so the meeting is too solemn and holy for this guy to clap, but not too solemn and holy to keep you from dicking around on your palm pilot during the talks?"

Ouch!

[Guest]

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[_Aristotle Smith]

That's interesting. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Christians also rely on "feelings and impressions" in determining what they believe it true.

For a certain segment of Christians, that is the case. However, for the vast majority of historic Christianity, this has not been the case.

The first time you see something like this was in the 17th century in America. There was a whole complex of social and religious reasons for the second generation Puritans/Pilgrims to take up experience as being determinative for one's state before God.

But the idea of fusing emotionalism with Christianity really takes off in the 19th century with the Second Great Awakening. As an aside, the First Great Awakening was way more rationalistic, thus giving a counter-example Christians always relying on feelings and impressions.

Anyway, the Second Great Awakening gave rise to revivals and other emotionally charged religious experiences. It was in this atmosphere that Mormonism got its start, so it's no accident that the epistemology of that movement essentially became LDS epistemology.

But this is also why Mormons are at a disadvantage for changing their feelings based epistemology. For Christians, a "back to basics" movement has lots of options for recovering a less emotionally charged epistemology, all they have to do is recover a pre-Second Great Awakening epistemology. Mormons can't go back further than 1830, so they are stuck with epistemology of feelings and emotions, that's all they have ever had.

[_dblagent007]

The same tools former Mormons used to dissect the Church can be used to dissect Christianity. Once you have become skilled using those tools on Mormonism, it isn't hard to apply them to Christianity and other religious traditions.

I did this for Mormonism and Christianity and decided that the most persuasive evidence (archaeology, anthropology, textual criticism, etc., etc.) points to the conclusion that God isn't really a part of either one. It is just made up.

[_MsJack]

In my opinion, the core issue is this: going from Mormonism to Christianity is simply going from one type of mythology to another type of mythology. In the end it’s all just mythology.

If this were true, then I would expect to see higher levels of ex-members of other religions defecting to atheism/agnosticism/non-religion.

I'll repeat my comment from LDS & Evangelical Conversations here:

My thoughts on this issue are simple: disaffected Mormons don’t turn to Christianity for the same reason that disaffected Christians don’t turn to Judaism. Christianity does not teach Judaism and then add Christianity on top of it. Our understanding of the Old Testament and the practices contained therein are entirely filtered through the revelations of the New Testament. Our worship and way of life is nothing like that found in Judaism. We feel no closeness to Judaism—neither theological nor cultural—so if faith in the claims of Christianity are lost, Judaism is never even a consideration.

Likewise, Mormonism does not teach traditional Christianity and then pile Mormonism on top of it. It just doesn’t. All of the things which Mormonism ostensibly has in common with traditional Christianity—belief in Jesus, belief in the Bible, belief in salvation and heaven, etc.—are carefully filtered through uniquely Mormon revelation. Our mode of worship and our lifestyle is (in most denominations) significantly different from that that has been experienced by Mormons. So when belief in uniquely Mormon revelation fails, it all goes.

Culture, I think, is another one. I've been to protestant services where they hold hands, or raise their hands over their heads and give glory to God. I felt very uncomfortable. I'd never be able to bring myself to participate. I'd feel self-conscious and foolish. I suppose I'd feel more comfortable in a Catholic mass, but then the issue you raised comes up again.

Yes, I agree. I went to a few Bible studies with friends after I left the church, and wasn't comfortable with their forms of worship.

During the prayers everyone was always mumbling: "Amen," "Hallelujah," "Praise Jeezus!" It all seemed fake and corny to me. Just the way I was raised I guess. Christianity always seemed superficial, fake, and forced to me, which was something that I always liked, and still do like about Mormonism...it's more mellow and toned down. I can't speak for Mormonism in places where there are large numbers of members though, because I have always lived in Texas.

Trust me, it comes down to personal preference. As someone with some background in Pentecostalism, I often feel like LDS prayers are dispassionate and rigid.

by the way, I uploaded this clip from Richard Dutcher's States of Grace a few years ago because I thought it was brilliant in illustrating these differences in prayer styles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZWND4nE1iY

[_sock puppet]

I think you're partly right. The other issue, at least for me, is that we were taught that the Holy Ghost spoke to us through impressions and feelings. We had testimonies because we felt the spirit testifying of the truth of things.

When we realized that some of the things that the spirit confirmed are not actually true, we began to distrust our feelings and impressions. And because that's how we were taught to experience God, we no longer have any idea how to experience God in our lives.

I think Runtu is right. As Mormons, we were taught that any positive emotion we felt was to be attributed as coming from god, via the HG. We were to ascribe it as divine confirmation of the most proximate question about "the Church" we have been considering.

When you step back, realize how "the Church" was manipulating you by steering you to such interpretations and that your emotions are internal and that you can generate them anytime you want with the right stimulus formula, any 'knowledge' based on feelings or based on anything other than rational thought seems absurd. Then you are left wondering why the concept of god in the first place, given that historically 'god' has gotten it wrong so often, without even being on a trajectory towards improving his batting average, while science keeps improving its explanations and its batting average. So you send god back to the dugouts for good.

[_Infymus]

When we realized that some of the things that the spirit confirmed are not actually true, we began to distrust our feelings and impressions. And because that's how we were taught to experience God, we no longer have any idea how to experience God in our lives.

+1 for this Runtu.

Missionaries show up with a video created by the Cult. They play that movie - with paid actors - about a boy who goes "astray" and then comes back to the Cult. The Prodigal son. Then they play a video showing how a daughter died, but the parents saw her in heaven and through the Mormon Cult, you too could be with your family. They stir up emotions - and then point at them claiming that the Holy Ghost(tm) is the one testifying to them that the Cult of Mormonism is true. When can we baptize you?

Then Mormonism continually teaches that only by your feelings and impressions can you KNOW the Cult is true. If it is good, it must be from God, right? They then corral you into thinking that if you don't pay them 10% of your gross, those special feelings will be taken away from you. How can you have ANY blessings if you don't pay?

When you finally realize that Mormonism is NOT what it claims to be, it leaves you disillusioned and non-trusting. Mormonism had answers for everything in terms of heaven, families, temples, etc, etc. Most other religious cults haven't defined it that far, or, their version is pretty grim with all that hellfire and damnation lest you obey crap. Mormonism creates an us vs them mentality, it sucks you in and because it is so cultish, it takes over your entire life. Ever notice how damned boring Mormons are? They haven't got a single thing to talk about except their Ward, their callings, their Ward gossip, their missions or sons on missions. The cult sucks in their entire lives and gives them very little room outside it. When they leave Mormonism they look at other religions and what they see is uncomfortable to them because of their Mormon conditioning. Raising arms and singing? That’s not right. Clapping after a sermon? Heaven forbid. Getting up and dancing in the pews? So wrong! A guitar, a drum and a keyboard for a song in? Does not compute! No plan for the family after death? No special ceremonies, no perceived “Authority”, no central core doctrine? No angels, visions, priesthoods, handshakes?

For me I realized that religion was a cancer on mankind. That religious men only served themselves and the money and power they could generate for themselves. I saw them all as inherently wrong. The Mormons spending 5+ BILLION dollars on a shopping mall just reaffirms to me the priorities of the One True Cult.

At the same time I realized that if there was a God, why did God favor some, and not others? Why was God so partial? If God was blessing me with a new job, a new car, food on my table or that he helped me find my keys - why did God not help that child who stepped on a land mind in Somalia? There are so many people suffering in this world, yet here God is in Salt Lake City making sure a tithe paying Mormon is delayed just enough that he doesn't get hit by a train on Tuesday morning. That child being sold into sexual slavery in some African country – well, too goddamn bad – Johnny B. Mormon paid his tithing in full and he gets first dibs on God’s attention.

I began to realize that if there was a God, God was a complete and total jackass, OR, that God was so far removed from "Earth" in all its creations that it probably didn't even know we were here - or couldn't interfere at all. After leaving Mormonism, logical thinking began kicking in and reason set in – something that wasn’t allowed in Mormonism.

So in the end I realized there just wasn't any God there at all and that religion didn't serve "God", they served themselves and used human beings to bolster their pockets and egos all the while controlling and manipulating them - and really preventing true human growth.

I used to be angry at God until I really realized there wasn't a God at all - and it changed my perspective. What does any other religion have to offer except more of the same? Group think, group mentality, pay us money, obey us or be punished. If anything, I began to move more toward secular humanism and reaching out to human beings in a way God never could, would or did.

[_DarkHelmet]

They forgot #6. Deep down, exmormons know the church is true.

[_Themis]

Some great comments by Runtu, AS, and MsJack. I would only add that those who leave a particular religion, especially LDS, tend to be more skeptical in their thinking then your average member. As such that skepticism is used when looking at other religions.

[_Juggler Vain]

The same tools former Mormons used to dissect the Church can be used to dissect Christianity. Once you have become skilled using those tools on Mormonism, it isn't hard to apply them to Christianity and other religious traditions.

I did this for Mormonism and Christianity and decided that the most persuasive evidence (archaeology, anthropology, textual criticism, etc., etc.) points to the conclusion that God isn't really a part of either one. It is just made up.

This is a key concept for me. I met several times with apologists to discuss the FLDS movement, and in their efforts to dismantle the FLDS belief system and origins (using personal journals, doctrinal discourses of early church leaders, logic, etc.), they gave me some useful tools for evaluating mainstream LDS origins and beliefs, and they are useful for evaluating other things too, including other religions.

Mormonism does not teach traditional Christianity and then pile Mormonism on top of it. It just doesn’t. All of the things which Mormonism ostensibly has in common with traditional Christianity—belief in Jesus, belief in the Bible, belief in salvation and heaven, etc.—are carefully filtered through uniquely Mormon revelation. Our mode of worship and our lifestyle is (in most denominations) significantly different from that that has been experienced by Mormons. So when belief in uniquely Mormon revelation fails, it all goes.

This makes sense to me. I've definitely looked critically at Mormonism in a much more thorough way than I've looked at traditional Christianity. I don't have a lot of interest in it, and MsJack's theory would explain why. This theory would also explain why the Mormons I know haven't expressed any hope that I will at least accept traditional Christianity as a fallback.

-JV