Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

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_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
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Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Kishkumen wrote:...
Well, so long as Reverend Spalding didn't own it, my testimony will
remain intact.


Let's ponder what I just outlined, and see if we can discern the major
problem. I do not suppose the major problem was that the chiasmus
matter was noticed and publicized, in the first place. Nor do I suppose
that the major problem lie in the fact that only a minimalist LDS response
to substantial rebuttals was ever advertised to the Mormon faithful.

What I see as the major problem here, is that the LDS apologist generally
disengages from scholarly (?) dialog at some point -- generally so when
he is losing the defense of his original argument. And thus the Mormon
reader is left unawares of the "big picture."

Another example could be pointed out in the NHM-in-Arabia "discovery."
The writer of the Book of Mormon could not have been a 19th century
person, because NHM-in-Arabia was unknown to 19th century folks.

Until I produced an 18th century map, locating Nahum in Yemen -- and
then other contemporary maps (and even a text description) were
located and brought to the attention of MI's "ancient Arabic expert."

Then the discussion shifts to ----> "But Joe Smith never saw that map."
To -----> "But Hyrum Smith never saw that map when at school at Dartmouth."
To -----> "Prove that the map was at Dartmouth when Hyrum was there."
To -----> "I have a testimony of the divine origin of the book!"

Once again, the topic shifts when the apologist get cornered.

Or another example:

Some on-line FARMs-style "scholar" was telling people that the magical
stone(s) lighting the interior(s) of the Jaredite submersible barges were
thoroughly scientific, practical, and unknown to Joe Smith.

Then it was pointed out that the old rabbis had a legend about Noah's
ark being lit on its interior by the biblical Urim.

So... -----> "But Joe Smith" could not read rabbinical Hebrew in 1828-29.
To -----> "So, what if the same story was told about Merlin's submarine?"
To -----> "But Merlin's submarine crossed the Atlantic, not the Pacific."
To -----> "But Joe Smith had no access to the Merlin shining stone story."
To -----> "OK, it was told in a popular book about preColumbian ocean crossings"
To -----> "Everybody probably thought submarines were lit by shining stones"

So -- like a very slippery eel, the topic gets turned and twisted, until the
apologist (in this case DCP) is forced to admit that it is a very strange thing;
and that it remains a point of controversy; and Mormons need not worry.

The LDS reader is continually shielded from opposing views -- or else those
opposing views are belittled, Hugh Nibley style -- or their proponent is exposed
as being a coffee-drinker, and God knows what else!

The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Uncle Dale wrote:The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

UD


Oh, I am familiar with the phenomenon, Uncle Dale (in fact, I intended my joke as a further illustration of it). But I will never tire of your detailed examples. I think you have some of the best. Keep 'em coming!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Kishkumen wrote:...Keep 'em coming!


Oh, that's probably sufficient for now. But I'll go back to something else:

>it remains a point of controversy; and Mormons need not worry.


I've seen the same phenomenon in the case of the so-called "human footprints"
preserved in the rocks, co-mingled with age-old dinosaur footprints.

"It's a controversy -- the matter has not yet been settled."

A handful of "young-Earth" creationists who enjoy reading Alley Oop comics,
facing off against a world full of careful, meticulous scientists, and the
summary of the matter ends up being publicized as a "controversy," in
which a false equivalency is portrayed -- as though the creationists have
the same credentials, numbers and believability as do the paleontologists.

We see the same thing in LDS-defended "controversies," such as the
Lehite DNA argument. The faithful member can relax, because the topic
remains a "controversy" and there is something to be said for both sides, etc.

male bovine droppings...

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Well, there is a whole industry of quack pseudo-science designed to prop up various beliefs and political agendas. Some of it is funded by well-meaning Christians. Some of it is funded by Koch Industries.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Cicero
_Emeritus
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:09 am

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Cicero »

I was an undergraduate at BYU in the 1990s. I majored in history and I was more interested in Mormon history than anything else but all of my professors told me it was a dead end professionally, although that was more due to Boyd K. Packer, Benson and others throwing Leonard Arrington out and closing the archives in the 1980s than with the FARMS-Signature Books wars. I went to law school.

At BYU they don't let the history department teach church history. The Religion department does. How Orwellian is that?
_3sheets2thewind
_Emeritus
Posts: 1451
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

Uncle Dale wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:...
Well, so long as Reverend Spalding didn't own it, my testimony will
remain intact.


Let's ponder what I just outlined, and see if we can discern the major
problem. I do not suppose the major problem was that the chiasmus
matter was noticed and publicized, in the first place. Nor do I suppose
that the major problem lie in the fact that only a minimalist LDS response
to substantial rebuttals was ever advertised to the Mormon faithful.

What I see as the major problem here, is that the LDS apologist generally
disengages from scholarly (?) dialog at some point -- generally so when
he is losing the defense of his original argument. And thus the Mormon
reader is left unawares of the "big picture."

Another example could be pointed out in the NHM-in-Arabia "discovery."
The writer of the Book of Mormon could not have been a 19th century
person, because NHM-in-Arabia was unknown to 19th century folks.

Until I produced an 18th century map, locating Nahum in Yemen -- and
then other contemporary maps (and even a text description) were
located and brought to the attention of MI's "ancient Arabic expert."

Then the discussion shifts to ----> "But Joe Smith never saw that map."
To -----> "But Hyrum Smith never saw that map when at school at Dartmouth."
To -----> "Prove that the map was at Dartmouth when Hyrum was there."
To -----> "I have a testimony of the divine origin of the book!"

Once again, the topic shifts when the apologist get cornered.

Or another example:

Some on-line FARMs-style "scholar" was telling people that the magical
stone(s) lighting the interior(s) of the Jaredite submersible barges were
thoroughly scientific, practical, and unknown to Joe Smith.

Then it was pointed out that the old rabbis had a legend about Noah's
ark being lit on its interior by the biblical Urim.

So... -----> "But Joe Smith" could not read rabbinical Hebrew in 1828-29.
To -----> "So, what if the same story was told about Merlin's submarine?"
To -----> "But Merlin's submarine crossed the Atlantic, not the Pacific."
To -----> "But Joe Smith had no access to the Merlin shining stone story."
To -----> "OK, it was told in a popular book about preColumbian ocean crossings"
To -----> "Everybody probably thought submarines were lit by shining stones"

So -- like a very slippery eel, the topic gets turned and twisted, until the
apologist (in this case DCP) is forced to admit that it is a very strange thing;
and that it remains a point of controversy; and Mormons need not worry.

The LDS reader is continually shielded from opposing views -- or else those
opposing views are belittled, Hugh Nibley style -- or their proponent is exposed
as being a coffee-drinker, and God knows what else!

The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

UD


Do you have this all documented? And can you provide it, I would very much like to.read it.
_3sheets2thewind
_Emeritus
Posts: 1451
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

Uncle Dale wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:...Keep 'em coming!


Oh, that's probably sufficient for now. But I'll go back to something else:

>it remains a point of controversy; and Mormons need not worry.


I've seen the same phenomenon in the case of the so-called "human footprints"
preserved in the rocks, co-mingled with age-old dinosaur footprints.

"It's a controversy -- the matter has not yet been settled."

A handful of "young-Earth" creationists who enjoy reading Alley Oop comics,
facing off against a world full of careful, meticulous scientists, and the
summary of the matter ends up being publicized as a "controversy," in
which a false equivalency is portrayed -- as though the creationists have
the same credentials, numbers and believability as do the paleontologists.

We see the same thing in LDS-defended "controversies," such as the
Lehite DNA argument. The faithful member can relax, because the topic
remains a "controversy" and there is something to be said for both sides, etc.

male bovine droppings...

UD


When I was a teenager my scout troop went to perdanalis falls, along the trail I noticed a rock about the size of a bolling ball, which had an impression in it which matched the contours of a human foot, how I wish I had packed that rock out of central Texas.
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Uncle Dale »

3sheets2thewind wrote: Do you have this all documented? And can you provide it, I would very much like to.read it.


You'd have to search over at the old MA&D board for threads on the NHM map
and for mentions of Merlin's submarine -- include "Uncle Dale" in your searches
of their archives. Let me know what turns up.

These thread URLs may or may not be useful:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/11254-if-you-believe-the-spauldingridgon-theory/page__st__120
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/12015-probability-and-nhm/page__st__20
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga/Arb1813n.jpg
http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8100&p=220825&start=0&sk=t&sd=a

On Merlin's submarine, this may be of interest:



On page 269
http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1805sout.htm#pg269
Southey provides a note explaining his mention of the "one emerald light" that through "the green element for ever shines." In speaking of this under-sea light, Southey brings up the topic of how the interior of the magician Merlin's legendary ship was illuminated. Southey speaks the magical, light-emitting stone (or set of two stones) called the "urim and thummim." When "Merlin with his band of Bards" sought the transatlantic "Green Islands" he went to sea in a "crystal Ark," able to plunge down to the "secret depths of Ocean." To light the interior of Merlin's submarine barque, Southey says he needs invent no source of radiance, for the explanations of Paracelsus have already provided for this need -- in revealing that the "Urim and Thummim were the Philosopher's stone; and it was this which gave light in the Ark." If any legendary magician had the necessary knowledge to procure the urim and thummim, it would have been Merlin, of course.

Several LDS scholars have equated Clavigero's Votan with the mysterious "brother of Jared" spoken of in the Book of Ether (see, for example, Moses Thatcher's 1881 articles in The Contributor and B. H. Roberts 1904 treatise), but none have ventured to comment upon this equally strong thematic parallel provided by Southey and Paracelsus (a.k.a. Julius Auroleus Phillipus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim, author of books such as Of the Chymical Transmutation, Genealogy and Generation of Metals & Minerals: Also, Of the Urim and Thummim).

The magical stone of God that lights the interior of an ancient ocean-crossing submarine is also to be found in the Book of Ether. There the brother of Jared procures a set of sixteen of these light-emitting stones -- activated through Divine Providence -- and places them in his own submarine barques. It goes without saying that some (or perhaps all) of these stones are also "interpreters" (magical oracular devices), just like the biblical urim and thummim are said to be by certain students of the religious occult. Noah took the light-giving urim and thummim into his ark -- so Merlin does the same. But the Jaredites, having eight submarines, need a sixteen of this kind of magical stone (in pairs, like the urim and thummim), and the brother of Jared (Clavigero's Votan?) supplies them to the hopeful mariners.

The number of thematic parallels between the story of Votan (coupled with that of Merlin's submarine) and the story told in the Book of Ether are just too many to attribute to coincidence.

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1805sout.htm#comments



UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

The Legacy of FARMS
June 26, 2012 By TT

... They successfully championed... chiasmus... that will have a long, defining impact on Book of Mormon studies.


http://www.mormoncanon.com/articles/A-l ... m#CHIASMUS

Chiasm in the Book of Mormon

Mormon apologists have made much of the discovery of chiasms in the Book of Mormon. A chiasm (also called "chiasmus"), named after the Greek letter 'chi' which resembles the letter 'X', is a literary device where a series of statements or phrases is followed by a reversed restatement of the same phrases: A, B, C, D, d, c, b, a.

This literary device was discovered in the Bible in the 19th century, and Mormon apologists discovered it then also in the Book of Mormon. They present this as evidence that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired, since chiasm had not yet been recognized in the Bible when Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon.

Chiasm loses all of its persuasiveness as evidence for the divinity of the Book of Mormon when one realizes that it is a literary device which can occur quite naturally in non-divine writings as well, and that an author need not be consciously aware of the device, nor know its name, to make literary use of it. Joseph Smith's diary, for example, does not claim to be divinely inspired nor to be an ancient document, yet the entry for April 1, 1834, is an excellent example of chiasm:

A the Lord shall destroy him
B who has lifted his heel against me even that wicked man Docter P. H[u]rlbut
C he [will] deliver him to the fowls of heaven
and
c his bones shall be cast to the blast of the wind
b [for] he lifted his [arm] against the Almity
a therefore the Lord shall destroy him

The third president of the church, John Taylor, used chiasm quite naturally, and no Mormon claims that the chiasm in his reflections are either evidence of divine inspiration or of ancient origin:

A And He in His own person
B bore the sins of all,
C and atoned for them
D by the sacrifice of Himself,
E so there came upon Him the weight and agony
F of ages
f and generations,
e the indescribable agony consequent upon
d this great sacrificial
c atonement
b wherein He bore the sins of the world,
a and suffered in His own person the consequences of an eternal
law of God broken by man

(The above examples are from Brent Lee Metcalfe, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol.26, No.3, pp.162-164.)

A tongue-in-cheek article in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol 33 No. 4, Winter 2000, p 163, by Robert Patterson, "Hebraicisms, Chiasmus, and Other Internal Evidence for Ancient Authorship in 'Green Eggs and Ham'" demonstrated that the same arguments which Mormon apologists use to show that chiasm is evidence for the Book of Mormon can also show that Dr. Seuss' children's book "Green Eggs and Ham" is also ancient:

I am Sam.
Sam I am.

I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
Would you like them here or there?
I would not like them here or there.
I would not like them anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Vernal Holley, in his book Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look, 3rd ed., p 26, (on line here) points out that Solomon Spaulding's "Manuscript Story" (also called "Manuscript Found"), considered by many - including Holley - to be a major source of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, also contains quite a few examples of chiasmus. And yet no Mormon apologist would consider that fact as evidence that Spaulding's story is actually Hebrew scripture.

For a thorough discussion of how frequent (and natural) chiasmus is, see Dr. Mardy Grothe's website at http://www.drmardy.com/chiasmus/welcome.shtml. He gives no indication that chiasmus is evidence of antiquity or of divinity (nor does he mention the Book of Mormon).

More links on chiasmus:
http://www.strangite.org/Chiasmus.htm (chiasmus in the Strangite holy scriptures!)
http://www.mormoninformation.com/chiasmus.htm


- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Devastating Assessment of FARMS Legacy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Cicero wrote:At BYU they don't let the history department teach church history. The Religion department does. How Orwellian is that?


As the Mopologists have been saying of late, it's all about controlling the narrative. They would know!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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