MsJack and the future of FARMS

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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:My hope is that the next generation of Mormon Studies scholars will help non-LDS people understand Mormonism better, such that it will be less vulnerable to ignorant prejudice.

Hey, I can always dream.


That's the job of the Public Affairs Department. :lol:
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Kishkumen
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Kishkumen »

Bob Loblaw wrote:That's the job of the Public Affairs Department. :lol:


And they suck at it!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:And they suck at it!


Parker and Stone are having a much bigger impact on Mormonism's image these days.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Kishkumen
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Kishkumen »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:And they suck at it!


Parker and Stone are having a much bigger impact on Mormonism's image these days.


Much more positive too.

The worst representative of Mormonism these days is a toss up between Romney and Monson.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:Much more positive too.

The worst representative of Mormonism these days is a toss up between Romney and Monson.


Most nonmembers don't know who Monson is. Romney's candidacy is bringing a lot of unwanted attention. I saw that the Bell brothers went after Andrew Sullivan on their blog. Not a good move.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Kishkumen
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Kishkumen »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Much more positive too.

The worst representative of Mormonism these days is a toss up between Romney and Monson.


Most nonmembers don't know who Monson is. Romney's candidacy is bringing a lot of unwanted attention. I saw that the Bell brothers went after Andrew Sullivan on their blog. Not a good move.


True. I guess Hinckley was more of a media presence, with decidedly mixed results.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Cicero
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Cicero »

Bob Loblaw wrote:I saw that the Bell brothers went after Andrew Sullivan on their blog. Not a good move.


I certainly don't agree with everything Andrew Sullivan says (far from it), but talk about a mismatch . . .
_cafe crema
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _cafe crema »

Kishkumen wrote:My hope is that the next generation of Mormon Studies scholars will help non-LDS people understand Mormonism better, such that it will be less vulnerable to ignorant prejudice.

Hey, I can always dream.


Aren't all religions subject to ignorant prejudice?
_Cicero
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Cicero »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Here's the problem in a nutshell: Mormons who do graduate level work in biblical studies almost invariably leave the LDS church. And, the few who stay almost always maintain their faith only by clinging to a very robust fideism, there really isn't that much of a connection between their scholarly work and their faith. But the bottom line is that neither of these groups will be doing apologetics for the LDS church based on some scholarly engagement with scripture.

The root of the problem is that modern biblical studies can really eat at one's belief in and trust of the Bible. Source criticism, redaction criticism, form criticism, textual criticism, etc. can really eat at one's beliefs, especially if you come from a fundamentalist background (and yes, Mormonism is functionally fundamentalist). But the real kicker is that all of those critical techniques work at least 10x better in killing faith in Mormon scripture than they do in the Bible. Pretty much every trained LDS scholar I think ends up realizing that there really isn't a way to defend or engage Mormon scripture from a critical standpoint. So, they either decide they aren't going to put their doubts on the self and leave, or they put their doubts on the shelf and cling to fideism (this is the "Mormonism works for me" crowd).


I put up a topic a couple of weeks ago questioning the value of textual analysis/criticism in promoting or destroying faith, and this is precisely the type of response I was hoping to see because I have long suspected this to be true. I have enjoyed some of Barlow's work, but for the most part I have found most of the faith-promoting, text-based arguments I have read to be unconvincing. They usually rely on parallels that never seem all that remarkable to me or that have easy alternative explanations. Also, as Ari mentioned later on, they are usually written by amateurs (usually academics trained in other fields or dumb lawyers like me).

There is a well-known quote from Justice Louis Brandeis that applies here: "Sunlight is the best disinfectant.” If your religion cannot abide strict scrutiny then what value is it really? So open up the books. Open the archives. Let the David Bokovoys of the world teach in the Religion department. Allow church history to be written and taught by actual historians again. Stop with all this "milk before meat" crap, because let's be honest, you never ever intend to actually give out any meat. Faith should not be built upon fantasy. Truth may indeed destroy some things President Packer, but truth should prevail.

Oh sorry I forgot, we're all just supposed to go shopping now . . .
_Kishkumen
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Re: MsJack and the future of FARMS

Post by _Kishkumen »

Cicero wrote:
Bob Loblaw wrote:I saw that the Bell brothers went after Andrew Sullivan on their blog. Not a good move.


I certainly don't agree with everything Andrew Sullivan says (far from it), but talk about a mismatch . . .


That was odd all the way around. Maybe Bell should ask Droopy about the relationship between his faith and his politics. It is clear to me that Sullivan is not saying that being a Mormon makes one a bad candidate, being a lunatic Mormon certainly would.

Maybe that's too complicated to follow for some folks.

And let's face it, Romney has taken a comfy stool at the nut bar since the beginning of he GOP primaries. It is legitimate to wonder whether he is in fact of the looney variety of LDS person.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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