A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

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_malkie
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _malkie »

SteelHead wrote:You forgot the:
Speaking as a Man or that's not official doctrine gambit.

In any case, "speaking as a man/not official" should not get you very far.

When it comes to these tactics, or the related one of "limited understanding", it's worthwhile to consider asking, how could a god's chosen leaders and mouthpieces be so wrong for so long.
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Kishkumen »

bcspace wrote:Why just yesterday I encountered a post here that claimed Joseph Smith had "his hands down a 14 year old girl's pants".


No kidding.

1. Young women didn't wear "pants" in those days.

2. Who know what the teenage Joseph Smith was up to?

3. At the age of 13-15, I would have been jealous of him, if he were one of my peers.

4. I am not convinced that the adult Joseph Smith was sexually involved with girls quite that young. It is clearly possible, but I doubt it.

5. Going for this kind of provocative criticism too easily strikes me as puerile.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:No kidding.

1. Young women didn't wear "pants" in those days.

2. Who know what the teenage Joseph Smith was up to?

3. At the age of 13-15, I would have been jealous of him, if he were one of my peers.

4. I am not convinced that the adult Joseph Smith was sexually involved with girls quite that young. It is clearly possible, but I doubt it.

5. Going for this kind of provocative criticism too easily strikes me as puerile.


Agreed. Joseph Smith was a lot of things but there is no need to exaggerate.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Chap
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Chap »

bcspace wrote:.... Why don't you present something that has actual meat instead of something that's too easily identified as a straw man, third hand account, ad hominem, or yellow journalism? Why just yesterday I encountered a post here that claimed Joseph Smith had "his hands down a 14 year old girl's pants".


It is not disputed that he married a 14-year old girl. So why is the act referred to in the quote above unlikely?

It is clearly a general reference to acts of a sexual nature carried out by Smith on his young bride, acts of a kind which are, goodness knows, normal enough in a married relationship.

You may not like seeing such references. But that is not the same as claiming that they are misleading or untrue.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap,

Did he have sex with his wives? I think so. There is, however, some question about the details of the relationship to which you refer. To simply go around casually snickering about Joseph Smith's lewd conduct in this instance is a cheap shot, in my opinion.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:Chap,

Did he have sex with his wives? I think so. There is, however, some question about the details of the relationship to which you refer. To simply go around casually snickering about Joseph Smith's lewd conduct in this instance is a cheap shot, in my opinion.


He did enough lewd conduct to snicker at that no one has to invent.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Kishkumen »

Bob Loblaw wrote:He did enough lewd conduct to snicker at that no one has to invent.


Perhaps. Certainly I wouldn't follow his example. I care about my spouse's feelings too much. I view Joseph Smith as a complex individual who possessed great talents and big flaws. He obviously liked the ladies, and charismatic men tend to have more opportunities, or pursue more opportunities, to indulge their appetites in that way.

It really does bug me, however, that people construe the actions of others in the worst possible way, regardless of their position. Moral judgment of this kind is a fine way to savage one's enemies, but it is quite a different thing to live an exemplary life. My view is that truly exemplary people don't waste their time decrying the failings of others.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Chap »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Chap,

Did he have sex with his wives? I think so. There is, however, some question about the details of the relationship to which you refer. To simply go around casually snickering about Joseph Smith's lewd conduct in this instance is a cheap shot, in my opinion.


He did enough lewd conduct to snicker at that no one has to invent.


Those who prefer to discuss Joseph Smith's sexual exploitation of his position as Prophet in a respectful manner are not forced to join those of us who find it a very suitable target for derision, especially his undisputed marriage with a 14 year old girl.

I'd probably speak in the same way of any man of his age who got a fourteen year old to marry him by saying God wanted her to, and that her agreement would secure salvation to her and to her whole family.

What a bastard he was.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Chap wrote:Those who prefer to discuss Joseph Smith's sexual exploitation of his position as Prophet in a respectful manner are not forced to join those of us who find it a very suitable target for derision, especially his undisputed marriage with a 14 year old girl.

I'd probably speak in the same way of any man of his age who got a fourteen year old to marry him by saying God wanted her to, and that her agreement would secure salvation to her and to her whole family.

What a bastard he was.


Totally agree. I sure as hell don't respect a man who used his religious position to commit adultery and coerced others into it. People who justify this crap deserve derision.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Bob Loblaw
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:26 am

Re: A Guide to Online Mopologetic Behavior

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Kishkumen wrote:Perhaps. Certainly I wouldn't follow his example. I care about my spouse's feelings too much. I view Joseph Smith as a complex individual who possessed great talents and big flaws. He obviously liked the ladies, and charismatic men tend to have more opportunities, or pursue more opportunities, to indulge their appetites in that way.

It really does bug me, however, that people construe the actions of others in the worst possible way, regardless of their position. Moral judgment of this kind is a fine way to savage one's enemies, but it is quite a different thing to live an exemplary life. My view is that truly exemplary people don't waste their time decrying the failings of others.


You don't have to paint Smith's behavior in the worst possible way. Telling it straight is bad enough.

What matters is his religious claims are BS not that he was a lecher.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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