Should LDS take a political stand?

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_Chap
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _Chap »

Droopy wrote: ...
...recently, a group of nuns and the Franciscan Action Network have asked Romney to shadow them for a day visiting the poor in order to better understand how his policies affect low income individuals.


Hmmm...a dynamic, growing economy, vastly increased job opportunities, lower taxes, a decrease of mindless business regulation (the direct consequences and compliance costs of which are, in effect, a form of government taxation), general price deflation, and a broadening tax base to fund necessary social services.

Yes, sounds very bad for the poor.


I think the problem for the religious persons referred to above is that they feel a fair degree of certainty about the short-term disadvantages likely to come to the poor people they help as a result of the implementation of the Romney/Ryan program, but they lack sufficient vision to be as sure as is Droopy of the no doubt much more significant medium to longer term benefits that will compensate the poor for their immediate losses.

If only they had more faith, they would be just fine.
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_Droopy
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _Droopy »

No. Government dole is contrary to LDS doctrine.


I would say this is correct, and quite so, given much of the criticism surrounding the New Deal programs that came from the mouths and pens of certain General Authorities during the 30s (although they never mentioned those programs by name or made any statements about political parties).

Premise 1: Neither KIng Benjamin nor King Mosiah, though they preached much about helping the poor, instititued government programs or heavy taxes for doing so but instead worked with their own hands and encourage individuals to do the same. In other words, the poor are helped by individuals and groups not connected to the government and they help themselves by going to work.


Exactly. Welfare, for Benjamin and Mosiah, was local and personal. It would have been decentralized and independent of central control just as our modern welfare storehouses are, and would have served such ancient Saints at various local levels. Benjamin and Mosiah would have had no conception of a centrally administered "welfare state" controlled and mediated by themselves and appointed bureaucrats.

It never would have crossed their minds (nor Peter's).

Premise 2: The fundamental principle of the Law of Consecration is the free use of it. Also there is the doctrine of no forced actions. Within the doctrine is the rejection of Socialism and public welfare as well as a rejection of the notion that the first Christians, in Acts 4, did not institute a communal system.


My suspicion here is that the situation in Acts 4 was some emergency among the Saints and/or the wider community that required a massive donation of goods and materials to alleviate those needs. The condition itself is simply not mentioned, but there is no evidence in the scriptures, or reason to think that this represented the inauguration of what David Bokovoy would call a "communitarian" (i.e., collectivist) social welfare system. It does not, in other words, represent an ancient Christian socialism, but only some temporary situation that required a heavy sacrifice among the Saints (unless one believes that the LoC requires LDS, including modern and future LDS, to enter into what amounts to a church-wide vow of poverty).

Jesus said "the poor ye always have with you". The question is will charity be denied and all be made poor under Socialism or will there be poor with the opportunity to rise or fall under free market capitalism and charitable individuals and groups as is the Gospel?


The age old question of the tension between quality and equality. If there are no rich or poor in a true Zion community, then whatever else is going on economically, we know that its not of a socialistic nature. Truly socialistic societies have never been able to sustain even modest middle class conditions for most, and democratic socialist societies just barely.
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_Jeneum
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _Jeneum »

Mosiah 5 says everything we need to know about how the LDS church doesn't follow its own sacred writings

Mosiah 5: 16-19; 22-24

16. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17. Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18. But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19. For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

22. And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23. I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24. And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
_PrickKicker
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _PrickKicker »

That's telling individuals to do it, people must not use church funds...

You go to friends and family first then,
and only then can you go to the Bishop for WELFARE.
Your needs will be discussed by all the wards gossips and bitches who will spread the word around that that lazy family that don't have a job are free loading off all the hard working members AGAIN!
You will then be humiliated by being escorted round a store, having to check each item is o.k. to buy with your very own personal shopper and you will be advised on what you can and can't buy no extravagances like STEAK or Chocolate. only basic foods like wheat and powdered milk to keep you alive... BARELY!

So all that Money you and generations before you have been pouring into the Morg, yeh its a big “F” YOU- BACK AT'CHA!

But rest assured, your money has not been wasted, No,no,no. All those hundreds of thousands of £/$, have paid for some pious pompous pricks to play dress up, hold each others hands and play God in a very fancy building and sit on golden chairs in one of the Lords many mansions, while you're house is REPO'd.

PEACE & LOVE

Mormon.org
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_Droopy
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _Droopy »

I think the problem for the religious persons referred to above is that they feel a fair degree of certainty about the short-term disadvantages likely to come to the poor people they help as a result of the implementation of the Romney/Ryan program,


I have no idea what those disadvantages might be. I suppose you do, however.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_bcspace
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _bcspace »

Mosiah 5 says everything we need to know about how the LDS church doesn't follow its own sacred writings


How not? Notice the verse set is not speaking of an organization but of individuals. There is no government solution in these verses nor is there a notion that a Church should not be built up to feed the people spiritually.
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_Drifting
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Re: Should LDS take a political stand?

Post by _Drifting »

The welfare programme of the Church is a two tier system.

If you are tier one you get everything paid for, including accommodation, transport, food, clothing, leisure expenses, shoe cleaning, laundry, house keeping, holidays etc etc.

If you are tier two you have to go crawling to the Bishop who will ask you embarrassing and patronising questions, make sure you have sold everything you can and cut all non essential expenses and then you will get a voucher to go to a storehouse to pick up some canned goods.

hmmm :confused:
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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