Untethered-BoM TBMs: Why not the Qur'an too?

[_Themis]

Islam violates D&C 134:4 and so is not a valid religion anyway.

To bad it also invalidates the LDS church as a religion.

[_Joseph Antley]

I'm not part of the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction crowd, but I do occasionally read the Qur'an and find several passages in it very inspiring.

[Guest]

I'm not part of the Book of Mormon as inspired fiction crowd, but I do occasionally read the Qur'an and find several passages in it very inspiring.

Inspiration can be derived from simple calls to action such as, "We are all in this together, so we will all be better off if we help one another as best we can."

Big ones in the Q'uran include the warnings to honor one's parents, practice charity, pray five times a day, keep Allah in your thoughts, etc. To Muslims, these are inspirational mainly because they are regarded as the words of Allah.

These kind of "inspirational" sayings may be "true" (or good advice), but it they do not constitute new knowledge and can certainly originate with humans. No God or Allah are required. One could as easily attribute these kinds of "revelations" to Zeus, or Apollo, or any other imaginary deity, or indeed, to Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon, or the Dalai Lama.

As to Kish and Tobin, I would be interested if you could provide one or more of the passages of the Holy Q'uran that you find inspirational (and explain why).

[_why me]

There is nothing like the testimony of the Three Witnesses to support Mohammed’s story, the Koran repeatedly and solemnly affirming that it is its own witness, and though Meyer naturally rejects the testimony of the witnesses out of hand, still it jars him. “The essential thing is, that this vision was for the Three Witnesses an absolutely real occurrence, on the complete and literal actuality of which none of them ever betrayed the slightest trace of a doubt. The opponents of the Mormons made every conceivable effort to get these men to retract their testimonies and to admit that there was a deception; but they remained unshaken, and continued to the end of their lives to affirm the truth of the revelation and the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Far harder to explain is the testimony of the eight witnesses.” 16

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1972/03/islam ... comparison

The whole article is a good read.

[_DrW]

There is nothing like the testimony of the Three Witnesses to support Mohammed’s story, the Koran repeatedly and solemnly affirming that it is its own witness, and though Meyer naturally rejects the testimony of the witnesses out of hand, still it jars him. “The essential thing is, that this vision was for the Three Witnesses an absolutely real occurrence, on the complete and literal actuality of which none of them ever betrayed the slightest trace of a doubt. The opponents of the Mormons made every conceivable effort to get these men to retract their testimonies and to admit that there was a deception; but they remained unshaken, and continued to the end of their lives to affirm the truth of the revelation and the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Far harder to explain is the testimony of the eight witnesses.” 16

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1972/03/islam ... comparison

The whole article is a good read.

Yep. Those three witnesses that poor Mohammad did not have certainly made a big difference.

Now there are only about 2 billion badly deceived Muslims in the world as compared to 14 million (or about 7 million if one is telling the truth) badly deceived Mormons.

[_Darth J]

There is nothing like the testimony of the Three Witnesses to support Mohammed’s story, the Koran repeatedly and solemnly affirming that it is its own witness, and though Meyer naturally rejects the testimony of the witnesses out of hand, still it jars him. “The essential thing is, that this vision was for the Three Witnesses an absolutely real occurrence, on the complete and literal actuality of which none of them ever betrayed the slightest trace of a doubt. The opponents of the Mormons made every conceivable effort to get these men to retract their testimonies and to admit that there was a deception; but they remained unshaken, and continued to the end of their lives to affirm the truth of the revelation and the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Far harder to explain is the testimony of the eight witnesses.” 16

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1972/03/islam ... comparison

The whole article is a good read.

The premise is stupid, because the Koran is not analogous to the Book of Mormon. The Koran does not purport to be the translation of an ancient historical record. The Koran is analogous to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Who are the three witnesses for the Doctrine and Covenants, Why Me?

Why don't you share some of David Whitmer's thoughts about the D&C/Book of Commandments?

[_why me]

The premise is stupid, because the Koran is not analogous to the Book of Mormon. The Koran does not purport to be the translation of an ancient historical record. The Koran is analogous to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Who are the three witnesses for the Doctrine and Covenants, Why Me?

Why don't you share some of David Whitmer's thoughts about the D&C/Book of Commandments?

The D&C is different from the Book of Mormon and its foundational claim is different. For Muslims, the Koran is a book that came from God. But there are no witnesses to this claim. The koran is the foundation for the Islamic faith as the Book of Mormon is for the LDS faith. Neutral critics have a difficult time with the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. And the text from the Ensign shows this.

Whitmer certainly had opinions. Fine. But he never denied his experience with the Book of Mormon.

As a sidebar: we need this type of Ensign again. Back in the day, the ariticles were interesting and various topic which are considered controversial today were covered.

[_why me]

Yep. Those three witnesses that poor Mohammad did not have certainly made a big difference.

Now there are only about 2 billion badly deceived Muslims in the world as compared to 14 million (or about 7 million if one is telling the truth) badly deceived Mormons.

It does make a difference as a truth claim. Without those 11 witnesses, the church's foundational claim would be challenged much more fanatically than now. Also, Islam is centuries old. Very few people today are engaged in proving the book wrong. Or challenging the foundational claims of the faith itself. Too dangerous.

[_Darth J]

The premise is stupid, because the Koran is not analogous to the Book of Mormon. The Koran does not purport to be the translation of an ancient historical record. The Koran is analogous to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Who are the three witnesses for the Doctrine and Covenants, Why Me?

Why don't you share some of David Whitmer's thoughts about the D&C/Book of Commandments?

The D&C is different from the Book of Mormon and its foundational claim is different. For Muslims, the Koran is a book that came from God. But there are no witnesses to this claim. The koran is the foundation for the Islamic faith as the Book of Mormon is for the LDS faith. Neutral critics have a difficult time with the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. And the text from the Ensign shows this.

Whitmer certainly had opinions. Fine. But he never denied his experience with the Book of Mormon.

As a sidebar: we need this type of Ensign again. Back in the day, the ariticles were interesting and various topic which are considered controversial today were covered.

Thanks for your unnecessarily verbose way of conceding the point. The Book of Mormon is not the foundational work for "LDS" truth claims. Several other denominations believe in the Book of Mormon. The historicity of the Book of Mormon is necessary but not sufficient for the LDS Church to be the true church. The Doctrine and Covenants also must be the authentic word of God, which, as you have conceded, has no supporting witnesses. (And even then, the authenticity of the D&C is just another necessary-but-not-sufficient step toward the truth claims of the LDS Church.)

And no, Why Me, despite your incessant, rote chatbot routine, critics have no problem at all dismantling the "testimony" of the Three "Witnesses" or the Eight "Witnesses." You be sure to jump into either of the following threads and prove me wrong, though:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23924

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24536

[_Drifting]

I have a basic question for those that believe that they can learn something from the Book of Mormon, regardless of whether they believe in the historicity of the BoM-described peoples and events:

Why do you cling to the notion that you can learn something sacred from the fictional Book of Mormon, but not read and learn and regard as sacred the Qur'an?

Is the Book of Mormon just a sacred hangover from when you were lied to, that the Book of Mormon peoples really lived, events really happened? Is it just a moral 'security blanket' you have a hard time letting go of and deciding for yourself what is and is not moral?

Scriptures (any scriptures) are the grown up version of a comfort blanket...