No one would risk everything for sex!

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_brade
_Emeritus
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Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _brade »

Chap wrote:
Yes indeed.

Links to this affair have been posted here so often, but here we are again. In a property dispute with the Reorganized Latter-day Saints in the 1890s, the Utah LDS church filed numerous affidavits from faithful Mormon women swearing that they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith. See for instance:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Why would those women lie on oath? Why would the church have wanted them to lie?

Let's hear from bcspace.


Right, so either Joseph Smith did have sex with women other than Emma, or the church helped several people lie under oath.
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
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Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

We now return to tonight's episode of "bcspace: Judge in Israel."

BC: What seems to be the problem, Sister Arbuckle?
SA: Oh, Bishop Space, I am so ashamed of myself! I was tempted and had sex with a ward member.
BC: Which ward member?
SA [bursting into tears]: Brother Loblaw!
BC: Well, that's quite an accusation. Can you prove it?
SA: Why would I make something like that up?
BC: I need proof before I can take this any further.
SA: My brother saw Brother Loblaw go into my room with me in the evening and spend the night with me. Brother Loblaw and I told him what had happened.
BC: I'd better talk to your brother.
---
BC: What can you tell me about the night your sister claims she had sex with Brother Loblaw?
BA: Not much to tell. He went into her bedroom and didn't come out until the morning. They both told me they had had sex.
BC: Was this the first time something like this happened in your home?
BA: Oh, no. Brother Loblaw had taken Sister Ella Bird and her younger sister, Sister Sally Bird, to the same bedroom for the same purpose the month before.
BC: I guess I'd better talk to them.
---
BC: Thank you for coming, Sister Ella. Can you tell me about the night you allegedly spent with Brother Loblaw?
SEB: Yes, it's true. We spent the night in bed together and had sex. I told my sister and Brother Arbuckle about it.
BC: Is this true, Sister Sally?
SSB: Yes, I had sex with Brother Loblaw in the bedroom at Brother Arbuckle's house. I also told my sister and Brother Arbuckle about it.
BC: Thank you. I will have to talk to Brother Loblaw.
---
BC: Brother Loblaw, you've been accused of having sex with three different women in the ward.
Brian Laundrie: You can't prove that.
BC: I have testimony from the women themselves that is supported by the testimony of Brother Arbuckle.
Brian Laundrie: They're lying. You have no evidence.
BC: Firsthand testimony is pretty solid evidence, isn't it?
Brian Laundrie: No, it isn't. Are any of them pregnant? Do you see any babies?
BC: Err, well, no.
Brian Laundrie: See? They're lying.
BC: OK. Sorry for bothering you, Brother Loblaw. Would you be willing to accept a calling I have in mind for you?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
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Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Fence Sitter »

It does not matter if it is proved that Joseph Smith had children. It would not change the mind of those who believe he was a prophet one bit. By steering the conversation toward the lack of evidence for children outside of Emma, believers can avoid all the really difficult issues that plague the Church on this issue, such as legality of polygamy at the time, lying both to Emma and the Church as a whole, the affair with Fanny before polygamy was revealed, coercion of women into polygamy through a variety of means by someone in a position of authority, how those women who rejected him were treated, and not following God's direction on how polygamy must be practiced.

The horndog issue is just the tip of the iceberg, an unimportant distraction.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_just me
_Emeritus
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Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _just me »

Are any of them pregnant? Do you see any babies?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Image

Bob, I think you have just shown us how gay people in relationships can get temple recommends!!! No babies, no sex!
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Chap
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Chap »

brade wrote:
bcspace wrote: ... But to prove that Joseph Smith did, I think you'll have to check the children seeing as how no other real evidence is forthcoming.


What do you understand of the testimonies in the Temple Lot case?


Chap wrote:
Yes indeed.

Links to this affair have been posted here so often, but here we are again. In a property dispute with the Reorganized Latter-day Saints in the 1890s, the Utah LDS church filed numerous affidavits from faithful Mormon women swearing that they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith. See for instance:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Why would those women lie on oath? Why would the church have wanted them to lie?

Let's hear from bcspace.


Hello bcspace!!!
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Fence Sitter »

The issue of issue is a non-issue. :surprised:
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:26 am

Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Fence Sitter wrote:The issue of issue is a non-issue. :surprised:


Things probably would have worked out better for Joseph had he just had his "issue" in a tissue.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_brade
_Emeritus
Posts: 875
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:35 am

Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _brade »

I honestly don't see what the big deal is in admitting that Joseph probably had sex with women other than his first wife. I mean, that's sort of explicit in the whole project of polygamy. If polygamy was ordained by God, then what's the problem?
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:26 am

Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

brade wrote:I honestly don't see what the big deal is in admitting that Joseph probably had sex with women other than his first wife. I mean, that's sort of explicit in the whole project of polygamy. If polygamy was ordained by God, then what's the problem?


I think the big issue is that, if he had sex and was concealing it from Emma and the church at large, it means he was a serial liar.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Gaia
_Emeritus
Posts: 56
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Re: No one would risk everything for sex!

Post by _Gaia »

Stormy Waters wrote:I believe that Joseph Smith had an advantage over many of those listed. His prophetic position allowed him to redefine morality itself.



GAIA:

Ever read the letter/ article where he does this explicitly, in order to justify his overtures to one young woman? --

Happiness the Design of Existence

Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 255.)


Here's what Helen Mar Whitney (daughter of Heber and Vilate Kimball) said of her experience:

Helen wrote:

"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth."

"My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched unil they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."
- Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view.

In fact, Joseph Smith gave Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:

"[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. ... I was sceptical - one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right."

The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the "law of Celestial Marriage" and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, "After which he said to me, 'if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred.' This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."

Helen also writes about her mother's reaction to all of this:

"None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied 'If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say."

"She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me."

Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." ("Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.)
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