Vertical and Horizontal Mormonism

[_consiglieri]

"handed down horizontally"?

huh?

We report.

You decide.

[_consiglieri]

I look at it as going from free to bound.

I am smelling a Prometheus reference here . . .

[_consiglieri]

Are you sure he wasn't writing as a "christian", I would assume he believed he was a "Mormon christian." Did he exclude Mormonism from what he had written?

Thanks
MG

Only by implication.

Nibley wrote it in such a way as to be susceptible to alternate interpretations.

And then got the Ensign to publish it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Bob Loblaw]

Vertical Judaism and Christianity is that brand of religion that believed in the necessity of direct revelation, inspired leaders, charismatic gifts, the coming of a real Messiah and a real millennium; the predominance of such beliefs at an early time has become apparent from the oldest Jewish and Christian manuscripts, whose recent discovery has completely changed the picture of Christian beginnings.

Both Judaism and Christianity, it would now appear, began as charismatic vertical religions that were in time completely suppressed and supplanted by the horizontal or academic way of thinking, which holds that one should reverence only the tradition handed down horizontally from one generation of teachers and scholars to the next and that the complete religious life is comprised in the proper observance of established customs and the acceptance of officially approved doctrines.

The bolded part is as apt a description of modern bcspace-esque Mormonism as any I've ever heard. Maybe Nibley was taking a subtle swipe at correlation.

[_harmony]

One of the primary things that concerns me regarding Mormonism is its evolution from a vertical religion to a horizontal.

In reading last night a 1972 piece by Hugh Nibley for the Ensign, he manages to frame the issue succinctly in describing the development of Judaism and Christianity. Hugh was so percipient, however, I am unable to believe he could not see its application to Mormonism. In fact, it strikes me as likely being a veiled criticism.

Here it is:

Vertical Judaism and Christianity is that brand of religion that believed in the necessity of direct revelation, inspired leaders, charismatic gifts, the coming of a real Messiah and a real millennium; the predominance of such beliefs at an early time has become apparent from the oldest Jewish and Christian manuscripts, whose recent discovery has completely changed the picture of Christian beginnings.

Both Judaism and Christianity, it would now appear, began as charismatic vertical religions that were in time completely suppressed and supplanted by the horizontal or academic way of thinking, which holds that one should reverence only the tradition handed down horizontally from one generation of teachers and scholars to the next and that the complete religious life is comprised in the proper observance of established customs and the acceptance of officially approved doctrines.

Thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This cannot be possible. Nibley got something right? (more's the pity...)

[_Infymus]

The Cult has started a new ad campaign in New York:

The Church’s Christmas media initiative has two components—one at Mormon.org/christmas, and one that includes extensive advertising in New York City. The initiative seeks to help people understand that Mormons participate in Christmas and worship Christ.

“All of our messaging is focused on helping people understand that Mormons are Christian,”

http://www.LDS.org/church/news/mormonor ... c?lang=eng

How about being straight up and saying that Mormons put on costumes and chant rituals in secret buildings that only 10% of gross earnings paid as "tithes" allow entrance?

Mormonism wants people to think they are normal that they are just Christians like everyone else. Each year they get rid of more and more of their embarrassing doctrines - or doctrines that aren't politically correct anymore. Apologist attack dogs fight any critics on technicalities.

Mormonism has one thing that works for them - and that is the funneling of cash from members to the Cult coffers. This is done through mandatory tithe. And in order to make this tithe work - and make the member believe in the Cult enough to pay - they have to have the secret temple ceremonies. You have to put a ton of make believe in there.

Stephen R. Donaldson is one of my favorite authors. In one of his series of books he explained how a great and noble group of leaders were slowly corrupted through the centuries by simple infiltration of ideas. The ideas changed the group slowly until they went from helping people to human sacrifices. The new leaders of the group knew what was going on - but they surrounded themselves with those who only had faith - not knowledge. Those who had faith were much stronger because they were driven by the new cult. Those who held faith were much easier to control.

Pondering the story Donaldson had written I saw the same manifested in the Cult of Mormonism. If you have members who are so convinced you are the one and only true Cult, they will not hesitate to open their pocketbooks and hand over everything. Mormonism needs this kind of special, secret, garment wearing, new name, pay lay ale - in order to keep the tithes flowing. If the cat is out of the bag, the tithing will stop.

So the reality is there is a certain point where Mormonism must stop moving towards Christianity - it has to because money is ultimately the top priority of the Cult. Money - Power - Control.

Look at all the recovery boards right now - even the NOM boards. What is the #1 topic right now because of upcoming December? Tithing. Tithing. Tithing. Oh and don't forget tithing. Sign up for tithing settlement. And don't forget to sign up for tithing settlement.

“All of our messaging is focused on helping people understand that Mormons are Christian,”

Naw, Mormonism isn't a Christian church. It's a secretive Cult with very cultish practices and it has to stay that way - or go broke.

[_huckelberry]

Horizontal or vertical, I was put off by the analytic tool because I think all religious organizations have both. I did not jump right up and say that because something else bothered me. I do not think either or both of these are adequate. I think ongoing reason experience and understanding have to be cultivated in order to have growing understanding to dialogue with tradition and revelation. The limitations of peoples understanding limits the effective scope of Gods revelation.

[_MCB]

I prefer to see it as both top-down and bottom-up. Mormonism lacks the second. With increasing literacy, Catholicism continues to develop the second. When the second part becomes predominant (often as a reaction against a disproportionate power among the hierarchy), the religion splinters, sometimes into fine particles.

[_huckelberry]

I prefer to see it as both top-down and bottom-up. Mormonism lacks the second. With increasing literacy, Catholicism continues to develop the second. When the second part becomes predominant (often as a reaction against a disproportionate power among the hierarchy), the religion splinters, sometimes into fine particles.

I like this observation. I may incline to think that Roman Catholicism is overly top down but I have noticed that the top listens to to bottom. I think this has been done for a long time now.

A tendency to splinter can be generated by too weak a top as well as too strong. My understanding of church history in the first few centuries sees a centralizing of authority to resist extensive fragmenting going on.

[_MCB]

My understanding of church history in the first few centuries sees a centralizing of authority to resist extensive fragmenting going on.

Hmmn LOL.